Lots of reading material! Speculative at best. Who knows?!
Lloyd
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
* I started this thread. I'm somewhat familiar with de Grazia especially, and somewhat with Earl Milton. I read your quoted material now and I appreciate the effort, but the quotes don't seem very impressive. The most interesting thing is probably the idea of the Sun being part of a binary star system. If anyone finds good evidence of that, people will probably get very interested. * Following are related matters that have been discussed before on this forum and may be worth reviewing. - These are on dating, e.g. inaccuracy of dating methods: https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=site~ - These are on sedimentation; I especially like the one I started on Rock Formation: https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=site~ - These are on de Grazia: https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=site~ - These are on Earl Milton: https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=site~
GaryN
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Looking at this image, I wonder if millions of years of weathering and erosion could produce the pointy peaks and those dendritic ridges. Having found no simulations for such processes, I ran one on my own bio-chemical non-linear quantum supercomputer, and it says "No". Pretty picture though. Tien Shan (Celestial) Mtns, in China Bigger: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HlzESbv5KGQ/T ... n+shan.jpg
Lloyd
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Grand Canyon Not from EDM? * I previously thought the theory that the Grand Canyon was carved electrically was the most plausible one, but now I've found another theory that seems more plausible. The main reason erosion by the Colorado River didn't seem plausible is that the river would have had to flow uphill from the northeast to reach the top of the original plateau and then carve out the canyon. Also, the river has no delta. But now I've learned that there was a lake where the Green River now flows, that is called Green Lake or Grand Lake, and beach lines of that former lake are still visible. And there was a similar lake, called Hopi Lake, south of Grand Lake, which also existed behind the plateau where the Grand Canyon is now. The lakes would have been over a thousand feet deep and covered much of AZ, UT, CO and WY. So it appears now that the lakes overflowed a few thousand years ago and this caused plateau, which acted as a dam, to fail catastrophically, like dams do, and the river was carved as the lakes drained in a short period of time. Much of the Grand Canyon is sandstone, which can often be easily eroded. If this occurred not long after a Great Flood, say within a few years or decades, the rock strata would have been even more susceptible to erosion. So the water would not have had to flow uphill to overtop the plateau, some of the water was already near the top in the lakes. Once the waters overtopped the plateau, there was lots of water behind them to keep opening the spillway became the canyon. The sediments would have become part of the rock strata below the Grand Canyon, covering many square miles. * See these two videos: http://youtube.com/watch?v=KZed9G4qDgI&feature=relmfu http://youtube.com/watch?v=RN0nxr6zb1g&feature=relmfu * This is a map image of the lakes. http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/webpictures/grand~
CTJG 1986
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Lloyd wrote: Grand Canyon Not from EDM? * I previously thought the theory that the Grand Canyon was carved electrically was the most plausible one, but now I've found another theory that seems more plausible. The main reason erosion by the Colorado River didn't seem plausible is that the river would have had to flow uphill from the northeast to reach the top of the original plateau and then carve out the canyon. Also, the river has no delta. But now I've learned that there was a lake where the Green River now flows, that is called Green Lake or Grand Lake, and beach lines of that former lake are still visible. And there was a similar lake, called Hopi Lake, south of Grand Lake, which also existed behind the plateau where the Grand Canyon is now. The lakes would have been over a thousand feet deep and covered much of AZ, UT, CO and WY. So it appears now that the lakes overflowed a few thousand years ago and this caused plateau, which acted as a dam, to fail catastrophically, like dams do, and the river was carved as the lakes drained in a short period of time. Much of the Grand Canyon is sandstone, which can often be easily eroded. If this occurred not long after a Great Flood, say within a few years or decades, the rock strata would have been even more susceptible to erosion. So the water would not have had to flow uphill to overtop the plateau, some of the water was already near the top in the lakes. Once the waters overtopped the plateau, there was lots of water behind them to keep opening the spillway became the canyon. The sediments would have become part of the rock strata below the Grand Canyon, covering many square miles. * See these two videos: http://youtube.com/watch?v=KZed9G4qDgI&feature=relmfu http://youtube.com/watch?v=RN0nxr6zb1g&feature=relmfu * This is a map image of the lakes. http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/webpictures/grand~
I've been aware of the existence of those lakes for a while but still uphold a mostly EDM view of the Grand Canyon formation due to the actual physical features of the Canyon itself.
Flowing water, no matter how much or how rapidly it flows generally does not produce the jagged features seen in the Grand Canyon, but more rounded and smoothed features.
Perhaps a combination of EM and water actions could have produced it?
My personal theory on the matter is that the 2 lakes were drained because of the EDM formation of the Grand Canyon 'cutting' into the lakes.
As a child I used to build large mounds in my sandbox with a depression in the center and a bit of plastic which I would fill with water, then I would build little sand villages and such with twigs and other stuff found around the yard.
Then I'd cut into the mound with a shovel or my hand and let the water rush out and destroy the sand villages and such like a giant flood.
I'm not quite sure why I did it, it was just interesting to me to see the way the water came down and even small amounts of water were able to wipe out seemingly large and strong structures of sand, twigs, etc.
But the end result after the water seeped away was always smoothed and rounded 'river beds' left behind where it had flowed, not jagged forms carved into rock as in the case of the Grand Canyon.
Could EDM forces have cut into the lakes vis-a-vis the Grand Canyon, sort of 'pulling the plug' on the lakes causing them rush out through the Canyon?
Water/hydrogen being dipolar it makes sense that such EDM forces would/may be attracted towards areas of large water bodies, no?
It's an interesting subject anyways, the Grand Canyon has always stuck out in my mind as being one of the more significant features of this planet as far as figuring out what has happened over time and I never get tired of getting some new perspectives on it.
The Grand Canyon would be the same as the other canyons, at least in my mind. Prevented, not eroded. The canyon might fill in when the area was flooded to a great depth. There would be no river to flush away the fresh sediment. But as the flood [inland sea] receded the sediments would be easily removed when the Colorado River was the width of the Grand Canyon. The base of the canyon would prevent erosion because it's composed of granite and schist.
According to legend and myth this was not a one time event. There would have been multiple events. The surface shows us the last event. The canyons reveal many events. There was time for animals to burrow into dunes in the Grand Canyon column of sediment.
Coconino Sandstone - This layer averages about 260 million years old and is composed of pure quartz sand, which are basically petrified sand dunes. Wedge-shaped cross bedding can be seen where traverse-type dunes have been petrified. The color of this layer ranges from white to cream colored. No skeletal fossils have yet to be found but numerous invertebrate tracks and fossilized burrows do exist.
michael
nick c
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Lloyd wrote: Grand Canyon Not from EDM? * I previously thought the theory that the Grand Canyon was carved electrically was the most plausible one, but now I've found another theory that seems more plausible. The main reason erosion by the Colorado River didn't seem plausible is that the river would have had to flow uphill from the northeast to reach the top of the original plateau and then carve out the canyon. Also, the river has no delta. But now I've learned that there was a lake where the Green River now flows, that is called Green Lake or Grand Lake, and beach lines of that former lake are still visible. And there was a similar lake, called Hopi Lake, south of Grand Lake, which also existed behind the plateau where the Grand Canyon is now.
It does not seem to me that the catastrophic emptying of a large deep lake(s) or the gradual draining, would create the feature we see today. Well that is just my impression. What is appealing about the electrical sculpting hypothesis is that these canyons are featured on many terrestrial type bodies in the solar system, providing a common cause. Using water to explain the GC requires that each planet or moon have it's own ad hoc explanation - customized to the particular celestial body. Whereas the edm model eliminates this and provides all with a common and simple explanation. If we grant the proposition that the planets were in situations of close proximity on numerous occasions, then it follows that there would be enormous electrical discharges more than capable of excavating canyons, valleys, rilles, chasms, or whatever we want to call them. Also, the lake draining model still has to show where the detritus went. [That is not to totally deny a role for other possible means (flood, wind, tectonic movement, impacts, etc.) of shaping the surfaces of celestial bodies. Such paroxysms of nature would have many and varied effects, each leaving its' mark.]
Steve Smith
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
That's it exactly, Nick. The parochial view of lakes and gushing water doesn't explain similar features on Titan or Mars, for example. Considering that the same kind of Lichtenberg formations exist on bodies close to absolute zero or with atmospheric pressures hardly greater than a vacuum, means that the geocentric model is incomplete.
Steve Smith
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
I think Paul Anderson conducted an excellent analysis of the Grand Canyon in his upcoming NPA paper. It can be found here:
* Thanks for the link to Anderson's paper at http://www.worldnpa.org/site/abstract/?abstractid=6482. * I read most of it now, but I don't understand what D means, which he says is typically about 1.6 or so for dendritic forms or Lichtenberg figures. I'm copying parts of the paper below, after a brief discussion first. * Here's an image from Anderson's paper showing a braided river system next to dendritic forms: https://docs.google.com/gview?url=http% ... er=6&w=796 Evidence of Dendritic Water Flow Patterns * I'm certainly willing to consider evidence of electric discharge carving of Earth features, but I'm not convinced yet that all dendritic patterns in geological features are electrical effects. Water flow seems to produce dendritic patterns too. I don't think the TPODs that discussed the carving of the Grand Canyon mentioned anything about the beach lines of the former large lakes that were held back by the Grand Canyon plateau. Had I known about those, I think I would have felt much less certain that the canyon was carved electrically. What was convincing about Juergens' description of lunar rilles as electrical effects was the fact that the rilles often go up and down over terrain. If you can show me rilles on Earth that go upward at least part of the way, I'd be very impressed. Such is often the case on Mars. The dendritic patterns there are often upside down, which is strong evidence for electrical formation from above. I don't see that on Earth so far, except for possible single channels running up the high points of some ridges, which I think needs further verification. * I spent a few hours now doing net searches. I found that the Roper River delta in Australia appears to be dendritic, yet flooding should wipe out such features: http://www.hedgehoghouse.com/stock/thumbnails/255000/255523~; http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/4201/PreviewComp/S~. * Here, Roper River flooding is discussed: http://www.bom.gov.au/lam/climate/levelthree/c20thc/flood10~. * This seems to show that dendritic patterns are common at the higher elevations in water erosion, while lower elevations take the braided form: http://www.funpeak.com/funnypics/ground-fractal.jpg. * Here are common dendritic patterns in sand: http://www.google.com/search?q=dendritic+sand&tbm=isch&~; http://www.seahouseswebsite.co.uk/SeahousesSands/Sand04.jpg; http://i50.tinypic.com/10zpaf8.jpg. From Anderson's Paper - The box counting method was used to determine the fractal dimension D, which is the same as the Hausdorff-Besicovitch dimension for 1 ≤ D ≤ 2. In this procedure, the algorithm places a grid over the picture and boxes with increasing numbers of pixels are used to fill in the black region of the picture. The resulting counts of boxes, N, of size s associated with the filled in picture is given by: log N = D log 1/s, where D is the slope of the line and fractal dimension from a log-log plot of the number of boxes N as a function of box sizes. The images were reduced by the skeletonization algorithm in ImageJ to gauge the extent of branching, yielding a pseudo-assessment of self-similarity in the primary pattern of the geologic landform. - The EU community further holds that there have been and still are dense plasma discharges on planetary surfaces [6, 7]. These arise from impingement of a roving Birkelend current, the surface of another body at a different potential, or a sudden large flux from a coronal discharge. A coronal discharge could also be caused by a large current flux, which is consistent with electric sun theories put forth by Juergens [8] and Alfven [1]. It was hypothesized that a sudden increase in output of the sun, only 4 times the current solar output, would lead to such large electric fields that our atmosphere would have to break down and carry the current to the earth's surface. Thomas Gold put forth a description of such an event: - "It is of interest to consider the magnetic storm effects of such an outburst….A magnetic storm of that kind [4 times the current output of the sun] would be a totally different kind of phenomenon from the usual one. The Earth's magnetic field could clearly not hold up the incoming gas, and it would indeed drive down to the atmospheric level where the gas pressure can resist further flow. At that level the atmosphere is dense and the ionization that could be maintained would not result in good conductivity. The incoming gas bringing its strong field into the virtually insulating atmosphere would then result in very large electric fields so directed that the resulting currents would maintain those fields. But in the atmosphere that can be done only by electrical breakdown…This breakdown would be in the form of a series of sparks, burning for extended periods of time and carrying currents in the hundreds of millions of amperes. One might search whether there is any geological record or surface fusing and vitrification of rock or sand which cannot be accounted for by volcanic or meteoritic events. Large quantities of glass, far too much to be made by ordinary lightning discharges, are indeed found on the surface in a few places, notably in the Libyan Desert. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to pursue this clue further…" [9] - For the sake of this paper, a catastrophic view will be accepted in which a large discharge event took place that sparked through the dielectric medium of the atmosphere and discharged current into the earth's crust. This discharge event was decidedly different than typical auroral currents observed today. As Gold points out, if the auroral currents were to increase, the plasma instabilities would progress to near the equator, where finally the atmosphere would become unstable and unable to carry the current flux. The plasma discharge would then erupt from glow current mode to arcing, resulting in numerous current paths to the surface of the earth. The discharge results in some type of pattern from the primary discharge stroke and subsequent distribution of charge which can take the form of craters, sinuous rilles, or stochastic patterns, more commonly known as Lichtenberg patterns. Lichtenberg patterns form when an electric arc strikes a grounded plate beneath a dielectric material. - ... Recent fluvial events were needed to calibrate the fluvial fractal dimension. Most rivers chosen for this analysis were braided networks with known, regular tidal basins such as the Mississippi (North America), Amazon (South America), Nile (Northern Africa), and the rivers of New Zealand (Rakaia and Waimakariri). Braided networks were chosen because they are a type of river that is not constrained by surrounding geology and thus take on a morphology dictated by flow rate. Chosen for analysis in this paper as flood inundations were recent mud volcanic events and other known flood events. - ... The work [of Anthony Peratt] strongly suggests that many petroglyphs recorded extreme auroral plasma events early in human history. ... The images correlated with the modeling of a concentric, columnar discharge tube at both poles of the earth. ... The appearance and preservation of these stone messages, particularly in light of their exact representations and field of view orientations, are very likely depictions of extremely large plasma instabilities and possibly discharge events. This would only occur if we assume the sun to have varied in output in the recent past. This is not an altogether unreasonable assumption, since there are variable stars that exhibit up to 4-5 times in solar output with regular periodicity [22].
starbiter
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
I made a post on the dune thread concerning the Grand Canyon.
IMO, the process of sloshing would produce dendritic, or tree like patterns naturally. The process doesn't produce flat surfaces. The surface undulates. When the area drains these undulations cause dendritic patterns to form. You can see the process at the beach when the tide goes out, as Lloyd and others have pointed out. There are no thunderbolts during the receding tide.
It might be possible that at one time the surface of the Earth was smooth. If this smooth surface was struck by a massive thunderbolt it might have created a Lichtenberg pattern. This might have imparted a pattern that was repeated each time the area was sloshed. The low points would be the areas flushed out as the flood receded. But i don't think this is necessary. The eroding beach sand makes a Lichtenberg pattern unnecessary, but still possible.
sloshy
starbiter
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
During the geology tour before and after the Vegas EU conference Dr Scott Wall noticed that material was removed in places that weren't at the low point. The removal went up and over ridges. It looked like a roller coaster. We called the process the Wallacoaster.
The image below is from NW of Las Vegas. I'm looking SW from Hwy 95.
This appears to be electrical removal of material over a ridge.
Most of the time material is removed from the lowest point. This implies water erosion, IMO.
michael
starbiter
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Below is an image by Andreas Otte. It shows a canyon in a sand dune North of Palm Springs. Where the canyon narrows towards the top it appears a current removed material going over several ridges. It also seems to have heated the area creating rocks. Where the canyon narrows the plasma flowing up the canyon might be compressed, increasing the current density, i'm told. The removal of material looks electrical, not from water or wind erosion, to my eyes.
Sparky wrote: Lots of reading material! Speculative at best. Who knows?!
I haven't found De Grazia's work speculative in general; I believe that you are mistaken there, although, of course, he does speculate sometimes in his writings. Any other reactions? Jone Dae.
Pretty picture though.
