Webolife wrote: Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently by webolife » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:22 pm
...I have personally spent hours examining and collecting specimens of petrified wood from interlayered sediments between the lava flows of Eastern Washington. These specimens I took from buried/exposed petrified trees of about a meter or more in diameter from the top of Frenchmen Hills south of Vantage, where also the Gingko Petrified Forest Park can be visited by anyone. Of interest to me was that the woody core materials were less consolidated than the outer layers and were the consistency of toothpicks. Looking at the broken cross sections of the petrified logs, one can easily observe the ringed structure of the wood, and closer microscopic examination shows individual cell features. The petrifying material is opal [not the fiery kind], a silicate common in the Columbia River Basalts there. Opal is formed from aqueous silica... 3. I have also taken numerous samples of diatomaceous earth and opal from the Quincy diatomite beds a few miles north of there. Of interest here is that the diatomite is unconsolidated material [indistinguishable from chalk in appearance, though silicate in composition], yet contains lenses of opalized rock [sections as large as a meter or more in diameter] formed from what I could tell as pressurized steam rewelded the diatomaceous sediment. The geologic story here is of lava flows interbedded frequently with sediment bearing overflows of ocean flooding. These sedimentary inter-layers range from gravels to sands, clays, and the above mentioned diatomaceous beds. The wood found in most of these varying layers is petrified with silica, but notably in one fairly deeply located clay layer the wood was partially carbonized [nearly to coal] but not petrified. That fossil sample is found at the interpretive center in the Petrified Forest park... 7. I am personally familiar with Donald Patten, and am confident he is a bonafide researcher.
I live not too far from Vantage and would be happy to take Webolife on a low altitude aerial tour of the area...for my own edification flying with an expert as well as to to get a macro directed view of the flood plain. BTW, Donald Patten passed a few years ago. I met with his co-author Sam Windsor just after that for an informative discussion.
webolife
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Minor correction to my view: Tsunamis would have played a part in the entire geology of the state, but in the scablands, it is primarily the "Bretz" floods I would claim were responsible for shaping the lava flows. My model follows standard geology in some ways, but invokes catastrophic events and timescales, necessitating some different conclusions about cause and effect. Whether interplanetary electrical forces were at work is a question I'm open to considering, but the immediate cause-effect scenario involves lava and water flooding in a related series of catastrophic events over a period of weeks, months, years or possibly up to a couple of centuries. Some of the Google images of "potholes" show vastly different types of depressions (all called "potholes") many of which I think could have had an EDM style cause. But the scablands have their own unique topography that I think may only be very superficially like the Martian topography to which it is sometimes compared.
Jaythree, I'd love to fly with you. Early July sometime? PM me.
Lloyd
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
* Web, are you saying now that oceanic tsunamis did not take part in the interlayering of strata in central Washington? * Do you agree that the flood basalt came from an outpouring of subsurface magma that surfaced in eastern Washington and spread over much of Washington, Oregon and maybe Idaho? * How could glacial flooding from the east have resulted in interlayering? And how would the oceanic diatoms have formed diatomaceous earth layers or lenses in central Washington without tsunamis carrying the diatoms there? * Isnn't the flood basalt event likely to have occurred about ten thousand years ago? That's when Cardona thinks the Saturn System entered the Solar System and Saturn flared and the flaring interrupted Earth's rotation, causing tsunamis to wash away the ice sheet. * In the event about 5,000 years ago, when the Saturn System broke up, he thinks the north polar plasma column released flood waters of a lesser amount, but which may be remembered as the Great Flood.
webolife
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
I'm even confusing myself now... What I meant specifically was that the potholes and coulees, which are relatively recent geologic events of eastern Washington, resulted from the outwash of the Bretz floods. Prior to that most recent catastrophy, I believe that tsunami caliber encroachments of the sea from the west were interlayering sediments and debris between successively flowing basalt eruptions, so that various types of sediments are now found between flows which were still hot when the washovers occurred, and that this occurred over months, years or a couple centuries or less; versus millions of years of rising and falling sealevels, separated by occasional unrelated outbursts of lava. Following later after the interlayering event[s] the catastrophic drain-off from the east occurred which carved the coulees and I believe steamblasted the potholes out of still oven hot lava.
Lloyd
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Flood Basalt and Scablands * Web, before we refine your last description of formation of the scablands via tsunamis, flood basalt flows and flooding, I'd like to get your view on this abstract from Nature. Text in red is mine. Origin of Columbia River flood basalt controlled by propagating rupture of the Farallon slab http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v482/n7385/full/nature~
The origin of the Steens–Columbia River (SCR) flood basalts, which is presumed to be the onset of Yellowstone volcanism, has remained controversial, with the proposed conceptual models involving either a mantle plume1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or back-arc processes6, 7, 8. Recent tomographic inversions based on the USArray data [Where can we find that data?] reveal unprecedented detail of upper-mantle structures of the western USA9 and tightly constrain geodynamic models simulating Farallon subduction [the American plate slid over the Pacific plate?], which has been proposed to influence the Yellowstone volcanism5, 6. Here we show that the best-fitting geodynamic model10 depicts an episode of slab tearing about 17 million [or a few thousand] years ago under eastern Oregon, where an associated sub-slab asthenospheric upwelling thermally erodes the Farallon slab, leading to formation of a slab gap at shallow depth[as per Velikovsky]. Driven by a gradient of dynamic pressure, the tear ruptured quickly [define quickly] north and south and within about two million years [or just a few days or months] covering a distance of around 900 kilometres along all of eastern Oregon and northern Nevada. This tear would be consistent with the occurrence of major volcanic dikes during the SCR–Northern Nevada Rift flood basalt event both in space and time. The model predicts a petrogenetic [rocks have genes?] sequence for the flood basalt with sources of melt starting from the base of the slab, at first remelting oceanic lithosphere and then evolving upwards, ending with remelting of oceanic crust [oceanic crust on the continent?]. Such a progression helps to reconcile the existing controversies on the interpretation of SCR geochemistry and the involvement of the putative Yellowstone plume. Our study suggests a new mechanism for the formation of large igneous provinces. [Yes, a la Velikovsky.]
Large Igneous Provinces * Large igneous provinces are shown in red on the map below. The flood basalt of the northwest looks small compared to other such provinces. Now, what's the likelihood that all of these large flows of magma all happened at one time? Could they have resulted from z-pinch forces from Saturn squeezing the Earth? Or could they have resulted when the squeeze subsided and the equator expanded? Or both? http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/webdav/site/GSL/shared/images/mis~
Lloyd
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Flood Basalt and Sedimentation Interbedding * I found this example of interbedding in Washington. This is a diagram of the Saddle Mountain basalt flows and sedimentary interbeds in the Grande Ronde River and Blue Mountains region in S.E. Washington from http://www.dnr.wa.gov/publications/ger_ofr81-6_grande_ronde~. The sedimentary interbeds are shown in yellow here. [The scale on the right marks 100 foot intervals.] * If this diagram is accurate, it looks like the strata formed in this order: First, the Umatilla Member magma flows occurred; Second, the Grouse Creek sedimentation followed; Third, the Eden flow erupted up through U and into the Grouse Creek sedimentation; Fourth, the GC sedimentary layer seems to have eroded for a period of time; Fifth, the Wenaha flow erupted up through U and GC and overlaid the eroded GC layer; Sixth, the Matchee Creek sedimentation overlaid the W flow; Seventh, the MC layer may have eroded for a time; Eighth, the Buford magma flow overlaid the MC sedimentary layer. * The abstract I quoted earlier suggests that these magma flows resulted from a subcrustal [?] slab slippage, which Velikovsky and others would say was due to near encounters with another planet. Source of the Sedimentation? * The question now is where the two separate layers of sedimentation came from. Did they come from glacial melt flooding from the east, or from tsunamis from the west? If I had read the paper at the site quoted here, maybe I would have found clues. Another question is, are there pothole formations in the Blue Mountains area? Timespan * Here's a quote from the site regarding time scales etc. I don't think I'll have time to read the whole webpage.
Shaw and Swanson (1970) originally proposed the rapid flow of lava across the gently sloping plateau surface; each flow, they argued, covered hundreds of kilometres in weeks or even days, a process requiring turbulent flow. More recent studies have suggested that emplacement took several months (Reidel and Tolan, 1992; Reidel, 1998) or even longer (Long et al., 1991). Self and his associates (Finnemore et al., 1993; Self et al., 1996, 1997) have compared the detailed physical characteristics of CRBG flows to other tholeiitic eruptions, particularly the much smaller flows of Hawaii. They concluded that laminar rather than turbulent flow dominated the CRBG eruptions and that, like many smaller flows on Hawaii, the CRBG flows were "emplaced as inflated compound pahoehoe flow fields via prolonged, episodic eruptions" (Self et al., 1997, p. 381). Ongoing regional studies of compositional variation in vertical sections of individual sheet flows across the Columbia Plateau (Reidel, 1998, 2005) demonstrate a recurring pattern of older eruptive units forming the top and bottom of a composite sheet flow with younger eruptive units in the center. Examples (Fig. 7) include the Umatilla Member (Saddle Mountains Basalt, Fig. 2). In the central plateau the older Umatilla flow forms the top and bottom of the member while the younger Sillusi flow of the same member occupies the center (Fig. 7a). Both of these flows erupted from the same volcano in southeast Washington around which they also formed individual surface lobes.
seasmith
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
China Hat Dome: China Hat, a geologically young landmark near Soda Springs in the Blackfoot lava field, stands nearly 1000 feet high and is 1.4 miles long. It formed during a small rhyolite eruption only about 57,000 years ago, and is the largest of three domes lined up above a buried fissure that fed magma to the surface. The rhyolite magma was so viscous it couldn't flow away from the vent; it just accumulated in a big pile. Since the volcanic activity in the Blackfoot lava field was so recent, the area is of considerable interest for geothermal energy. Domes similar to China Hat are a common type of volcanic landform that are built where small batches of viscous magma erupt.
Bruneau Canyon: Bruneau Canyon is about 800 feet deep and only a few hundred feet wider at this scenic viewpoint south of Bruneau. The river rapidly cut down through many layers of basalt, ranging from 7 or 8 million years old at the bottom to 4 or 5 million years old at the canyon rim, as Lake Idaho drained away and afterwards. Once the lake was drained, the river's base level became much lower; previously the high lake level had prevented the river from cutting down through the basalt.
Basaltic Tuff: About a million years ago, just after Lake Idaho had drained ...
A site well worth a visit which we will do, prob Aug; and have you checked out the Bison's eye on the national weather channel map ?
Like both your posts Lloyd, and agree with your time adjustments... long times simply aren't necessary, only required under the old uniformitarian presuppositions. Petrogenetic simply means igneous rock formation in this context. The oceanic crust bit is interesting in that the type of basalt in these flows is usually, but not always, found on ocean floors due to the thinner crust there. But as your other image shows, there are many exceptions to this. One possibility is that the edge of the continent was pushing up oceanic crust in this locale as the continents were sliding over. The other is that there is another explanation for this type of basaltic eruption that is not well understood.
Lloyd
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
How Would Floodwater Make Potholes in Magma? * I asked an EU geologist this:
Have you studied the potholes in the scablands, or the scablands in general? Since the flood basalt and sedimentary strata are interbedded to some extent, and diatomaceous earth is present in some areas, it seems that there must have been flooding from the ocean at least. So, do you know if flooding, or stream flows, can form such potholes? That is, would waves of ocean water hitting hot magma produce steam explosions that would make the pothole shapes, like these? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EQitk5rqTcs/S86E_SZsUcI/AAAAAAAAB~ * I'm having a little trouble imagining waves of water like that causing explosions only in some areas. Or could the magma have been too cool in most places and only hot enough to make explosions in those hotter areas?
Lloyd
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
See the video link at the end of this post. * I listened to this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67tk9InW4gc, which explains the flood basalt as having formed underwater, when the area was flooded. I'd like to find out if the potholes can form underwater that way. This brief video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwU8Vww8ahs supposedly shows how potholes form by water action, but I don't understand well what it's showing. * Oh, here's another good image of potholes from http://www2.ess.ucla.edu/~jewitt/Baker08.pdf. They're labeled as Rock Basins. * And here's a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ8XuS4KTAU&feature=rela~ that shows how the scablands may have formed and it shows underwater tornadoes forming potholes. How about that then? But steam explosions in magma seem more plausible. * I now found this image of holes formed at Mt. Saint Helens ash field, after explosions, on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNy4sN_7Ams; and it shows dendritic ridges on the banks of the holes, maybe indicating electrical forces were involved there.
webolife
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Nice pics of both the pothole region and the ashfields of Mt. St. Helens. Those explosion pits in the ash were caused by steam and/or gas explosions during the 1980 eruption of St. Helens. The bluish cast picture above is of the Dry Falls area where I have studied the potholes. The depressions at upper left are Dry Falls, the lake on the right is Deep Lake, and the potholes I have studied are the "Rock Basins" shown adjacent to the lake. I favor the idea that hot spots in the lava were responsible for the potholes.
Did I miss the "EU geologist's" reply to your query, or is it the comment below the picture, or...??
moses
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Does this mean we have to consider the possibility that many of the craters were formed by bubbles of gas. So instead of EDM there was intense heating by electric currents and somehow gas built up until the bubble burst producing the hole, raised edge and dendritic ridges. Mo
webolife
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Remember we're talking about an eye-witness event here in the case of Mt. St. Helens... the ash canyon and explosion pits were formed during a lahar caused when a log jam in Spirit Lake was breached 2 years after the 1980 eruption. There is very little guess work involved in the causes and effects...
Lloyd
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Mo said: Does this mean we have to consider the possibility that many of the craters were formed by bubbles of gas. So instead of EDM there was intense heating by electric currents and somehow gas built up until the bubble burst producing the hole, raised edge and dendritic ridges.
* No, the above discussion isn't talking about craters, just potholes, formed in lava or magma beds and in ashfields. There's also a difference between the holes above, in that some formed in lava or magma beds, while the last ones shown at Mt. St. Helens were formed in ashfields. And the flooding in both cases was probably quite a bit different too. I surmised that the dendritic ridges in the latter holes may have formed by ED, but I don't really know enough details on the matter as yet to be confident about that.
601L1n9FR09
Re: Earth's Surface Formed Recently
Howdy All, There is a rapid process of erosion called cavitation. Some one with more time and skill at researching posting might look into it. Meanwhile if Jaythree takes ME flying i will pay for the gas
