© Lloyd---Thunderbolts Forum - The Photon
_Postby Bengt Nyman » Wed May 29, 2013 4:44 am
_Is the photon a particle or a wave?
_Yes, and probably much more.
_Allow me to suggest that a photon is a complex nest of recirculating, standing waves where the propagation of one photon can be compared to that of a smoke ring.
_The propagating toroidal photon is twisting around its circular center line propelling the center of the toroid forward while the outside periphery recycles back toward the inside of the toroid.
_The propulsion is possibly caused by like-polarity, repulsing string charges appearing on the leading edge of the toroid, possibly aided by unlike-polarity, attracting string charges appearing on the trailing edge of the toroid.
_Image - The image shows the proposed nested core of a photon.
_Please note that secondary, telltale electric and magnetic fields are not shown.
_A segmented cross section of the toroid shows the nested, standing waves representing the varies wavelengths of multi-chromatic visible light.
_As is easily envisioned, the propagation of this toroidal nest generates the variation in frequency and wavelength that we associate with the telltale electric and magnetic fields generated by a propagating photon._Postby D_Archer » Thu May 30, 2013 4:49 am
_Hi Bengt, Miles Mathis recently linked to a page from the University of Glasgow:
_http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/physics/research/groups/optics/research/orbitalangularmomentum/
_I thought the graphics on that page have some resemblance to your toriod.
_Miles has send his work to the professor recently, he has an open invitation for new proposals.
_The physical photon is very important to understand and would solve many mysteries, at least Miles has made a lot of headway in this regard._Postby Bengt Nyman » Thu May 30, 2013 7:27 am
_I agree. Thank You Daniel.
_Considering that we just got our first composit energy images of a hydrogen atom including proton and electron, we have a long way to go before we get similar images from an electron or a photon.
_If mass is any indication we need to be able to magnify another 1836 times to see the standing wave structure of a "stationary" electron.
_If a photon can be represented by its two constituents; one electron and one positron, the "size" of a stationary photon might be in the same range as the electron.
_Even though the "tire tracks" of a photon are commonly illustrated as alternating electric and magnetic fields, it says very little about the vehicle itself.
_We can probably deduct the frequency of the events inside a monochromatic photon from its tire tracks, but very little else.
_A full spectrum photon is likely to be even more complicated.
_An experiment that I wish somebody would do is to put two identical monochromatic lasers shooting at each other, looking for photon scattering in form of an occasional photon becoming red shifted in relation to the laser frequencies._Postby jjohnson » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:06 pm Hi, Bengt, An intriguing concept, as always.
_Your laser experiment seems like it would be easy to set up on an optical bench.
_One thing occurred to me: If there are occasional photon collisions - actual physical collisions, with an exchange of energy and momentum, the law of conservation of momentum (skipping the angular momentum for now) say that if one of the photons is red-shifted as it departs the collision site, the other one should be blue-shifted.
_Does that sound right to you?
_That gives you two chances (per collision) to see if there was a change in momentum, red and blue.
_Now the "but" part: But if the photons move at c, and they all mass the same, and momentum = mv, then there cannot be any exchanges of energy.
_Vector direction may change (glancing collisions as opposed to dead-center collisions), but not the scalar parts, because they are all, always, moving at the same scalar velocity, and all have the same mass.
_Are you proposing that they do not all have the same mass?
_Or are you equating mass with energy and saying that "bluer" electrons have more energy than redder ones, and therefore they have more mass?
_I'm not too hot to trot with that latter idea.
_More energy - yes, certainly.
_More mass? I am not sure about that.
_A little too Einsteinian, and Steve Crothers might well disagree with that part, too._Postby Farsight » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:39 am
_Take a look at gamma-gamma pair production then Compton scattering then annihilation.
_Two photons interact to make an electron and a positron.
_A photon interacts with the electron, losing energy and changing direction.
_It's still going at c, but it is decelerated in the vector sense.
_Meanwhile the electron is accelerated.
_It annihilates with the positron, and then you're back to two photons.
_See Williamson and van der Mark's paper here. Williamson is at Glasgow.
_These depictions are from their paper: Image_Postby PersianPaladin » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:09 am
_For people here relatively new to (or unfamiliar with) Electric Universe perspectives on "light"; I strongly suggest that you read this piece by Wal Thornhill:-
_http://www.holoscience.com/wp/the-remar ... -of-light/_Postby jjohnson » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:13 am
_@ farsight: Very interesting diagrams.
_What is curved space? How is it different from "flat" space?
_The energy flow pathway is similarly interesting with its double circuit of the toroid, but what kind of energy is being routed round and round this tiny structure?
_Energy is one of those amorphous terms that we have trouble defining, other than words like "the ability to do work".
_Is energy here expressed in joules? Is it quantized or not?
_And why is it thought to move; i.e., translate on a trajectory through space within the tiny but supposedly finite dimension of a photon??
_If it really is moving, then part of the time it is moving faster than light, and part of the time slower than light. What lets it do that?
_Just questions to get us thinking about what we are being shown here.
_I'm not saying wrong or right - just thinking about things out loud.
_Have to be careful, interpreting sketched diagrams with claims of showing something.
_The question here is, showing what ?_Postby seasmith » Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:03 pm
_Farsight wrote: Two photons interact to make an electron and a positron. A photon interacts with the electron, losing energy and changing direction. It's still going at c, but it is decelerated in the vector sense. Meanwhile the electron is accelerated. It annihilates with the positron, and then you're back to two photons.
_Unfortunately, Gabriel LaFreniere's Aether Wave website has been highjacked or died on the vine, but consider a 3D version of this 2D image:
_http://imos-journal.net/wp-content/uplo ... 5/fig6.png
_Take the light areas for electrons and the dark areas for positrons (in 3D+t the initial progression continues).
_If in the posts above, the meeting of two 'photons' was in a box with receiver-sensors on all eight sides, instead of just one receiver/detector; would multiple electrons and positrons be detected ?
_http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I ... 7C-2RM.jpg viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5221
_http://watchknowlearn.org/Video.aspx?Vi ... oryID=2548
_http://www.spaceandmotion.com/_Postby celeste » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:39 pm
_Bengt's idea here does work with Thornhill's concept of mass, to explain why a photon has zero (or vanishingly small) mass.
_Toroids can be very stable, and according to Thornhill's idea of mass, very stable orbits within a particle = low mass._Postby Farsight » Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:45 am
_jjohnson wrote: @ farsight: Very interesting diagrams. What is curved space? How is it different from "flat" space?
_Curved space is just what you think.
_Imagine a flat calm ocean. Now add a wave.
_Where is the sea curved? Where the wave is.
_Where is space curved? Where the photon is.
_Note that curved spacetime equates to a very gently curved path of the wave.
_Gravity is just a "trace" force when electromagnetic forces don't quite cancel.
_See this thread for more information.
_jjohnson wrote: The energy flow pathway is similarly interesting with its double circuit of the toroid, but what kind of energy is being routed round and round this tiny structure?
_Light. Electromagnetic energy.
_jjohnson wrote: Energy is one of those amorphous terms that we have trouble defining, other than words like "the ability to do work".
_When you probe the fundamentals, energy is in essence "stressed space".
_It's very real, we can make matter out of it.
_jjohnson wrote: Is energy here expressed in joules?
_I don't know. I don't think it matters.
_jjohnson wrote: Is it quantized or not?
_Yes. The h in E=hf relates to the diameter of the torus, whilst the wavelength is twice the circumference.
_You can only make an electron with one particular wavelength.
_jjohnson wrote: And why is it thought to move; i.e., translate on a trajectory through space within the tiny but supposedly finite dimension of a photon??
_Because of electron magnetic moment and the Einstein-de Haas effect which "demonstrates that spin angular momentum is indeed of the same nature as the angular momentum of rotating bodies as conceived in classical mechanics".
_jjohnson wrote: If it really is moving, then part of the time it is moving faster than light, and part of the time slower than light. What lets it do that?
_It doesn't. It's just light. It going round at c.
_jjohnson wrote: Just questions to get us thinking about what we are being shown here. I'm not saying wrong or right - just thinking about things out loud. Have to be careful, interpreting sketched diagrams with claims of showing something. The question here is, showing what ?
_The electron. Image - The depiction isn't perfect, nor is the image above.
_All we're dealing with is "field".
_A better depiction would show more and more of the "onion ring" layers along with their frame dragging.
_That's essentially what an electromagnetic field is._Postby Farsight » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:08 am
_seasmith wrote: Unfortunately, Gabriel LaFreniere's Aether Wave website has been highjacked or died on the vine, but consider a 3D version of this 2D image: http://imos-journal.net/wp-content/uplo ... 5/fig6.png Take the light areas for electrons and the dark areas for positrons (in 3D+t the initial progression continues).
_The light and dark areas aren't electrons and positrons.
_A photon is essentially an aether-wave soliton.
_When it's stuck in a tight closed path we call it an electron. Or a positron if it's got the opposite chirality.
_Reverse the arrowheads on the torus for that. A positron is a "time reversed electron".
_It isn't going back in time, or anything, it's just like a mirror-image moebius strip.
_Check out Dirac's belt: "In this sense a Mobius strip is reminiscent of spin-1/2 particles in quantum mechanics, since such particles must be rotated through two complete rotations in order to be restored to their original state".
_seasmith wrote: If in the posts above, the meeting of two 'photons' was in a box with receiver-sensors on all eight sides, instead of just one receiver/detector; would multiple electrons and positrons be detected ?
_No. Each photon deflects the other into itself, then it deflects itself continuously.
_Only we don't call it a photon any more. We call it an electron. Or a positron.
_It's essentially a standing-wave. But don't think a standing wave is truly motionless.
_If you've got a standing wave in a box like a Fabry-Perot cavity, then if you drop one of the sides it's out and away at the speed of light.
_It can't do that from a standing start._Postby seasmith » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:23 pm
_Farsight wrote: A photon is essentially an aether-wave soliton.
_That i essentially agree with, tho it should probably be prefaced with the word 'transitional'.
_Farsight wrote: Each photon deflects the other into itself, then it deflects itself continuously.
_That's not the behavior of a soliton wave, which would refract, reflect or adsorb.
_It sounds more like some virtual particle (if you want to start here with the "either-or particle-wave state", as artifact of detection).
_If so, i do think you are on the right visual atd track with the twisted Mobius figure, but space will be filled more efficiently (which is precisely what any wave is trying to do), if you go with something like an iterating Lissajous schematic, as others have done before.
_http://www.google.com/search?q=image:li ... 87&bih=959
_Postby Farsight » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:01 am
_seasmith wrote: That's not the behavior of a soliton wave, which would refract, reflect or adsorb.
_It is, seasmith. The photon features displacement current wherein "light consists of transverse undulations in the same medium that is the cause of electric and magnetic phenomena".
_Imagine you're in a canoe in the sea and a wave comes along.
_You go up. There's a "current" pushing the water up. Then you go down. This current is alternating.
_Hence vacuum impedance. Impedance is like resistance, but for alternating current rather than direct current.
_When you "wrap up" the displacement current as an electron and then move it, we call it conduction current.
_Move it back and forth and we call it alternating current, move it in the same direction and we call it direct current.
_seasmith wrote: It sounds more like some virtual particle (if you want to start here with the "either-or particle-wave state", as artifact of detection).
_The photon is definitely real, and it definitely has a wave nature.
_seasmith wrote: If so, i do think you are on the right visual atd track with the twisted Mobius figure, but space will be filled more efficiently (which is precisely what any wave is trying to do), if you go with something like an iterating Lissajous schematic, as others have done before.
_Look at the black line in the torus above. That's your Lissajous schematic.
_It's essentially the same as Qiu-Hong Hu's "hubius helix".
_See http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0512265
_and this: http://members.optushome.com.au/walshjj ... ong_Hu.gif_Postby seasmith » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:55 am
_[] Yes, but you are "deflecting" it, like a 'particle.
_[] i was just suggesting a minor tweak to your visual aid ; as a Mobius strip is stationary, while an iterating Lissajous is moving in the nature of waves. Even so-called "standing waves"._Postby Bengt Nyman » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:07 pm
_Hi Jim, I believe that a photon is much too complex to be described as just frequency, mass and a constant propagation velocity.
_I expect us to find that light traveling through different parts of the universe travels at slightly different speeds.
_This speed ratio, which is the inverse of the index of refraction, is likely to vary depending on the density of energy that the photon travels through.
_For glass of optical quality this ratio is approximately 1-1/3=0.67.
_I wouldn't be surprised if dense parts of our universe slows the passage of a photon to a velocity of 1-1/10^16 or less.
_Numerical claims aside I believe that we are limiting our thinking by assuming a constancy which is mathematically convenient but realistically unlikely._Postby Farsight » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:16 am
_Noted seasmith. Yes, standing waves aren't motionless.
_If you have a standing wave in a box and you open it, it's off like a shot from a standing start because it always was moving at c.
_Electron/positron annihilation is like opening one box with another, only afterwards there's no boxes left because each was a "photon in a box of its own making".
_Good stuff Bengt. The speed of light varies with gravitational potential.
_That's why light clocks go slower when they're lower.
_And why we have gravitational lensing.
_See this paper: http://cpl.iphy.ac.cn/EN/Y2008/V25/I5/1571_Postby Bengt Nyman » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:24 am
_jjohnson wrote: If there are occasional photon collisions - actual physical collisions, with an exchange of energy and momentum, the law of conservation of momentum say that if one of the photons is red-shifted as it departs the collision site, the other one should be blue-shifted.
_Imagine the photon like a toroid, layered like an onion, with a toroidal closed loop standing wave the frequency of infrared light in the outer layer and an ultraviolet frequency in the inner layer.
_The center of the toroid propagates with the velocity c/n where n is the local refractive index of the surrounding in-homogeneous vacuum.
_The outer periphery of this photoid is essentially motionless while the center erupts forward propelling the photon forward with the speed of c/n.
_Because of the complexity and the dynamics of these nested, closed loop, standing waves it is not immediately obvious what a collision would bring.
_It appears from slit and polarizing experiments that a photon is a highly motivated, resilient and somewhat self healing constellation.
_Take for example the so called three polarizer paradox which in this light is no paradox; Let us say that polarizer 1 is arranged to pass waves in a vertical plane.
_However, the energy found past polarizer 1 is 50% of the original, teaching us that toroidal recirculation planes all the way up to 45 degrees to some extent manages their way through the polarizer.
_Polarizer 2 is designed to pass waves at a 45 degree angle.
_There should be little or none of that but the energy past polarizer 2 is still an impressive 25%.
_This indicates that even if only a single toroidal recirculation plane is capable of passing through, it also manages to pull nearby recirculation planes along, like a toroidal slinky.
_Polarizer 3 is designed to pass waves only in a horizontal plane and polarizer 1 should have made sure that there is none of that.
_However, polarizer 2 has shifted the pattern somewhat toward 45 degrees allowing a few recirculation planes to find their way through the horizontal polarizer.
_The amount of energy passing the third polarizer is 12.5%.
_The moral of the story is that a photon is one crafty son of a toroidal slinky.
_We should be able to get some ideas about the effects of a photon to photon collision by studying colliding smoke rings which propagate in a manner similar to the proposed photoid.
_Whether these collisions can be viewed in simple mechanical terms as 100% elastic, creating redshift in one and blueshift in the other, I do not know.
_One alternative is that a collision might be more plastic, knocking down certain recirculation energies from one level to another, possibly spinning of some dark energy in form of one or several free, elementary energy strings._Postby GaryN » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:59 am
_An older thread on the photon.viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2852 A pdf: Anti-photon-W.E.Lamb
_It is high time to give up the use of the w o r d "photon", and of a bad concept which will shortly be a century old.
_Radiation does not consist of particles, and the classical, i.e., n o n - q u a n t u m , limit of Q T R is described by Maxwell's equations for the electromagnetic fields, which do not involve particles.
_http://www-3.unipv.it/fis/tamq/Anti-photon.pdf_Postby Farsight » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:51 am
_Interesting paper, Gary. I agree with it. The "photon" is just a wave with a quantum nature.
_It isn't some billiard ball thing. And neither is the electron.
_IMHO a lot of the problems in contemporary physics stem from people thinking in terms of point-particles rather than waves._Postby Bengt Nyman » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:36 am
_If we accept the thought that the subparticulate world might be far richer and more detailed than previously imagined, it is easier to envision the suggestion that what we call a particle, a photon or an electron, is actually a living, closed loop of recirculating standing waves nested together in a temporarily stable and harmonic quantum of electrodynamic energy.
_This ball of energy may vary in design and size giving rise to the family of "particles" that we today have come to accept as building blocks of our Electric Universe.
_Some of these constellations appear to be more restless than others, such as the photon, whose electromagnetic weave and inherent recirculation dynamics relies on reaching for new space in a constant state of motion until reflected, deconstructed or absorbed in an exchange with other energy constellations.
_I suspect that the electron is of a smaller but somewhat similar design, a sibling to the photon with an ancestral propensity for restlessness.
_Considering how far science has come in the last thousand years, I am looking forward to another thousand years of interesting work and discoveries in the subatomic world._Postby Farsight » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:21 am
_I suspect the electron is just a 511keV photon stuck in a tight double loop, Bengt.
_It's a standing wave because in aggregate it isn't going anywhere.
_And that other particles with mass are variations on that theme.
_Interestingly, when it comes to massive particles, leaving antiparticles out of it, guess how many are stable? Two._Postby Chromium6 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:26 am
_Found this interesting on the photon.
_Still another item to consider: Ionization and photon emission in single-bubble sonoluminescence
_We calculate the emitted light spectrum using a blackbody radiation model refined in two ways to accommodate the effects of ionization.
_First, the presence of ionized plasma greatly reduces the photon mean free path, and hence we divide the bubble into a strongly absorbing core and a weakly absorbing outershell, according to the wavelength-dependent mean free path.
_We define the radius of the "black" core to be the point where (l) equals a fraction of the bubble radius.
_The core surface temperature is increased because photons emitted in the inner core are absorbed by the surface layer of the core.
_We treat this effect approximately by redistributing the radiation energy of the inner core to the gas in the surface layer.
_http://lsec.cc.ac.cn/~lyuan/epl.pdf
_http://www.physics.ucla.edu/Sonoluminescence/sono.pdf---------------
_Gas bubbles in liquids can emit bursts of light called sonoluminescence when they are 'popped' by ultrasound.
_Weizhong Chen and co-workers at Nanjing University1 have developed a new way of monitoring the wavelengths emitted in sonoluminescence, revealing the extreme conditions inside the bubble.
_During sonoluminescence, the gas inside a collapsing bubble reaches pressures and temperatures so high that it ionizes to produce light.
_This has led to speculation that sonoluminescence could be used to achieve thermonuclear fusion, but the process is still poorly understood.
_Chen and co-workers directed ultrasound onto bubbles of krypton gas dissolved in sulphuric acid.
_The emitted light was recorded on a spectrograph, then delivered to a streak camera, which deflects light to trace wavelengths over time.
_The streak images showed that the wavelength decreased from infrared to ultraviolet during the sonoluminescence pulse, which lasted around nine nanoseconds.
_According to the laws of black-body radiation, the wavelength trend corresponds to an exponential increase in temperatures as high as 100,000 kelvins.
_However, this does not take into account the high pressures in the bubble, which could produce much higher peak temperatures on the scale of millions of kelvins.
_The researchers were unable to record images fast enough to observe the cooling process.
_It remains a mystery exactly how the bubbles are able to cool down so rapidly.
_http://www.nature.com/nchina/2008/08101 ... 8.241.html