Some further elaborations on the physics of plasma discharge striations:-
The formation of moving plasma balls (also called "bubbles" or "fireballs") and filaments (figures 10,11) in a SW produced plasma column has been first reported in [11]. The typical plasma parameters are as follows: plasma density of 1×1011cm-3, electron temperature of 1eV, tangential SW electric field amplitude of 10 V/cm, absorbed microwave power varying from10 to 100 W c.w. The contracted core transits in plasma balls and filaments, the latter evolving with increasing pressure to "strings of fireballs". At lower pressure the fireballs are comparable in size to the column radius and they gently "swim" immersed in the background plasma (figure 10). When increasing pressure the size of the fireballs decreases to few millimeters, their movement becomes chaotic and one could even hear them bouncing the tube walls (figure 11). The behavior of the strings of fireballs is similar to that of the filaments, commented in Section 5, e.g. the splitting of a string into two strings (figure 12), but with increasing microwave power from 10 to 100 W c.w. may become more complicated, as for example, the cascade decay of strings of larger fireballs into strings of smaller ones (figure 13) or strings' entanglement (figure 14). Dark and light halos surrounding the plasma balls, looking very much like the usual strata in the positive column of DC glow discharges could be seen on figures 10 and 13 – 15.
standing-wave striation-like structures (plasma balls) similar to those observed in high frequency electrode and electrodeless discharges have been theoretically explained (with a convincing experimental support) as nonlinear/bifurcation phenomenon, severely dependent on whether the ionization rate is proportional to the electron density or to its square; in our experiments the confinement by the tube seems to be important for the behavior observed
The physical mechanisms involved in the creation of these structures include ionization and heating instabilities, non-uniform neutral gas heating, connected with the electromagnetic wave skin effect, bifurcation phenomena due to step-wise ionization, plasma density profile modification due to ponderomotive effects of the surface wave and more (we could add here also the excitation of static electric fields and the appearance of the associated double layers). It seems, however, that the simple explanations on a fundamental/elementary level have been exhausted and the system should be studied in its complexity instead.
You can also note the evolution here of "ball striations" along the discharge filaments with some being quite spaced out and then eventually much closer together:- http://www.spacetelescope.org/static/ar ... o0409b.jpg
The same can be seen in interstellar filamentary clouds - with some showing "beads" at closer spacings between each other within the filaments and others with "beads" at much greater spacings:- http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/ipbrow ... 883_ip.jpg
PersianPaladin wrote: In his IEEE paper titled "The Z-Pinch Morphology of Supernova 1987A and Electric Stars", Wal Thornhill delivered a compelling case that the bi-polar and circular morphology of the supernova is formed by essentially the same z-pinch discharge phenomena that can be observed in bipolar nebula as well as high-ampere discharges in the lab. These are explosive events, but they are electrical in nature.
Supernova 1987A is an interesting study, but for now I'll just comment on the more general model of planetary nebulae. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't seen an electrical schematic, but it sounds like Thornhill is saying that the current runs through the entire axis of the nebula, while getting pinched in the center, like the first panel in this image.
Since the magnetic force is a direct function of the amps, and since the amps are the volts divided by the resistance, there are only two factors that could create a pinch in the middle of a charge stream: 1) the voltage increased, or 2) the resistance dropped. So what could create a dramatic increase in the voltage at the pinch point, and decrease the voltage back to its original value past the pinch point, to make the amps behave this way?
On a breadboard this would be trivial, but in plasma, how to create a steady state field in that configuration is beyond me. I know that you can find photos of plasmas that have pinches in them, but have you ever seen one where the discharge maintained a steady radius, and then rapidly pinched way down, and then rapidly relaxed back into a steady radius for the remainder?
The other possibility is that the resistance dropped, but there again, I don't see how this happens out in space. I think that you have to assume that the near-perfect vacuum of space is a near-perfect insulator, and then wherever there is an aggregation of matter, you've got an extension cord that you can use, and if the resistance goes way down, the amps go way up, and the z-pinch kicks in. But where did this current come from, and how did it get through several or many lightyears of a near-perfect insulator? Total resistance is the resistance per distance times the distance. Several lightyears of a near perfect insulator equals absolutely no current at all. Then again, if a perfect vacuum is a perfect conductor, you can easily get a current, but then it would go around the matter in the nebula, and you still have nothing. So I don't see the presence of the conditions that would cause a pinch like this, and I consider this to be just observation & attribution, but without any similitude.
As concerns the way you're trashing the mainstream treatment of supernovae, I wholeheartedly agree! Heat from the thermalization of relativistic ejecta from a nuclear explosion does not cause condensation. Cold causes condensation. Heat causes dispersion. It's just that simple. IMO, the relationship between supernovae and star formation is very different. But I'll wait to be asked about that.
PersianPaladin wrote: Here are some laboratory examples of spherical "plasma ball" striations happening when the temperature of a plasma discharge is varied very significantly. [...] I maintain that star-formation is actually far more simple than many of us might think. Since we can have a good indication of formation - this can then lead to later theories as to how we deal with the perpetuation of the discharge throughout the galactic environment.
I'd like to question just how easy it is to establish similitude between the various forms of plasma discharges and the formation of stars and planets. Does this produce spherules? (It's an SR-71 jet engine in afterburner mode.) It's definitely plasma, and it definitely looks like beads on a string. So I think that your model predicts spherules.
sr71engb.jpg (10.28 KiB) Viewed 221 times
Did any of the plasma discharges that you cite form any spherules? If not, why not?
Daniel
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
Daniel wrote: This realisation that the flux path of the magnetic lines of force do not follow a spheroidal orbit about the magnetised object does not only apply to bar magnets, but to any magnetic field regardless of size or shape, hence the observation of a Bloch wall at both the central axis region and along the equatorial plane, which, I beleive, has long perplexed theoraticians.
But you can all ignore this fact and go blissfully along if you like. It makes no difference to me. You are the ones trying to make sense of everything, I am just trying to help by bringing the facts of the basics to your attention.
Daniel wrote: This realisation that the flux path of the magnetic lines of force do not follow a spheroidal orbit about the magnetised object does not only apply to bar magnets, but to any magnetic field regardless of size or shape, hence the observation of a Bloch wall at both the central axis region and along the equatorial plane, which, I beleive, has long perplexed theoraticians.
But you can all ignore this fact and go blissfully along if you like. It makes no difference to me. You are the ones trying to make sense of everything, I am just trying to help by bringing the facts of the basics to your attention.
I for one am not ignoring, just a lot of info to digest (for me). The magnetism thread is also very interesting. You're not wasting your time. Hoz put up some good info and I'm also digesting that. Please don't stop posting insightful information as it will be useful for me when I revisit, once I have the basic knowledge to fully grasp and comprehend what you are communicating.
Daniel
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
Basically, magnetism of the source dipole of matter came first, due to the interaction with the time frame, from the motion of matter with referance to the static background. Simple. So, this formed energy. The referance frame of all matter in a ground state.
The thought has now gone. sorry.
This is post number two for the night
5 to go
Siggy_G
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
seasmith wrote: The "full year composite" is interesting also, for its ecliptic/toroidal luminance:
Interesting find. It's also interesting that the most active regions seem to be the volumetric mid-points (bands) between each of the poles and the equator, as if there is some kind of internal energy distribution between these regions. If this distribution is the sum of internal currents between the poles and the equator, there will be two internally induced toroidal magnetic fields approximatelly at these regions - each with different polarity. They would in turn induce electric fields and coronal loops as seen in the image.
See also:
Also, I don't think incoming currents are litterally pin-pointed at the poles, but the poles seems to be preferential regions based on various configurational factors. The effects may influence the cause.
Then I found this image from NASA... I wonder if they realize what they've drawn up, especially in image (f), (except the erroneusly induced field directions). They have indicated one large toroidal magnetic field, while there in reality should be two close to eachother. And there is little plausibility of a central energy source for these effects:
Since the magnetic force is a direct function of the amps, and since the amps are the volts divided by the resistance, there are only two factors that could create a pinch in the middle of a charge stream: 1) the voltage increased, or 2) the resistance dropped.
3) an occuring central source for current focus and an additional magnetic field
Why hot spots occur in the pinch of a plasma focus/filament is something I haven't read up on yet, but perhaps this paper gives a clue (I'll continue my search). Papers on plasmoids may also be relevant: Hot_Spots_And_Filaments_In_The_Pinch_Of_A_Plasma_Focus_An_U~
Daniel
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
Why do these diagrams display the field lines going in the same direction either side of the magnetic pinch?? This is absurd. What force decays absolutely, then reemerges as the same force??? Nothing. It is always an inverted field. Therefore, the field lines travel in an opposite direction.
CharlesChandler
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
Siggy_G wrote: Then I found this image from NASA... I wonder if they realize what they've drawn up, especially in image (f), (except the erroneously induced field directions).
No, they have no idea what they're drawn up. In their "explanation of the physical processes", it says, "Meridional flow carries surface magnetic flux towards the poles, causing the fields to reverse". Astronomers have come to think of the magnetic force like a fluid, that can flow through flux tubes, or be transported by convection. But no, that's not an explanation of physical processes. Calling it "physical" actually constitutes fraud, since they know full well that magnetism just doesn't act that way. If you're on the look-out for such bastardizations of physics, they're easy to spot. Then you have to look carefully for whether or not there are actually any real data in there at all. Sometimes are there are none.
Siggy_G wrote: 3) an occurring central source for current focus and an additional magnetic field
What's that?
Siggy_G wrote: Why hot spots occur in the pinch of a plasma focus/filament is something I haven't read up on yet, but perhaps this paper gives a clue (I'll continue my search).
If you're going to look into focus fusion literature for the astrophysical implications, do a sanity check first. Aside from the fact that scientists have been working on focus fusion for 50 years, and still haven't gotten it to work, we should distinguish between impulsive versus steady-state configurations. If the question concerns planetary nebulae, which take thousands of years at the very least to form, an impulsive model starts out challenged. Then, when you actually look at the potentials getting discharged in focus fusion, and then you scale those up to consider how they would work in a nebula, you get potentials that just aren't possible in the excellent conductivity of plasma. And if anything in the Universe did discharge potentials like that, everything in the Universe would be dead now. So I don't see the relevance.
Anyway, I skimmed over the paper you cited, and it looked like pure math to me. If you're looking for physical models, look elsewhere.
Siggy_G
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
CharlesChandler wrote:
PersianPaladin wrote: Here are some laboratory examples of spherical "plasma ball" striations happening when the temperature of a plasma discharge is varied very significantly. [...] I maintain that star-formation is actually far more simple than many of us might think. Since we can have a good indication of formation - this can then lead to later theories as to how we deal with the perpetuation of the discharge throughout the galactic environment.
I'd like to question just how easy it is to establish similitude between the various forms of plasma discharges and the formation of stars and planets. Does this produce spherules? (It's an SR-71 jet engine in afterburner mode.) It's definitely plasma, and it definitely looks like beads on a string. So I think that your model predicts spherules.
sr71engb.jpg
Did any of the plasma discharges that you cite form any spherules? If not, why not?
The afterburner jet seems to show interference patterns of overlapping transparent jet filaments. It could also be tendencies of 'beads' formations. In either case, the ratio of both velocity and temperature are quite extreme along this filament, and it's most likely not a current, but merely overexcited air atoms (plasma state) with a bulk movement.
A galactical plasma filament that were to contract due to magnetic fields would be due to an axial current as well as a ratio between density, velocity and temperature to allow for central condensations based on ionization potential and mass.
As for spherule formation in sand, I always thought it was about formation within the sand due to electrical discharges onto it, i.e. crater formation and spherules of the sand, simular to the formation of fulgarites. Need to revisit that paper.
upriver
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
LOL!!! But this could implications for the iron sun model.... If gravity was a external force...Just saying....
"The core of the Earth is nearly 1,000 degrees hotter than previously thought, making it as fiery as the surface of the sun. Following new experiments, scientists have established that the core temperature is 6,000 C, much higher than the previous estimate of 5,000. Using X-rays to probe into the behaviour of iron crystals, putting samples of iron under extreme pressure, researchers were able to examine how iron crystals melt and form."
I really find this talk of an isolated, self energized Sun to be silly. But i'm not a physicist, so i'll lose every debate. I can only see.
michael
CharlesChandler
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
starbiter wrote: If the Sun is self powered, why is there a heliopause?
If you mean, "Why is there a charge separation at the heliopause?", one possibility is that neutral interstellar particles impinging on the solar wind are stripped of their electrons, while the +ions burrow deeper into the solar wind, due to their greater inertial forces. This leaves the heliosphere with a net positive charge, with a double-layer of negative charges around the outside, at the heliopause.
May, H. D., 2008: A Pervasive Electric Field in the Heliosphere. IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, 36 (5): 2876-2879
PersianPaladin
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
CharlesChandler wrote:
PersianPaladin wrote: In his IEEE paper titled "The Z-Pinch Morphology of Supernova 1987A and Electric Stars", Wal Thornhill delivered a compelling case that the bi-polar and circular morphology of the supernova is formed by essentially the same z-pinch discharge phenomena that can be observed in bipolar nebula as well as high-ampere discharges in the lab. These are explosive events, but they are electrical in nature.
Supernova 1987A is an interesting study, but for now I'll just comment on the more general model of planetary nebulae. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't seen an electrical schematic, but it sounds like Thornhill is saying that the current runs through the entire axis of the nebula, while getting pinched in the center, like the first panel in this image.
Since the magnetic force is a direct function of the amps, and since the amps are the volts divided by the resistance, there are only two factors that could create a pinch in the middle of a charge stream: 1) the voltage increased, or 2) the resistance dropped. So what could create a dramatic increase in the voltage at the pinch point, and decrease the voltage back to its original value past the pinch point, to make the amps behave this way?
On a breadboard this would be trivial, but in plasma, how to create a steady state field in that configuration is beyond me. I know that you can find photos of plasmas that have pinches in them, but have you ever seen one where the discharge maintained a steady radius, and then rapidly pinched way down, and then rapidly relaxed back into a steady radius for the remainder?
The other possibility is that the resistance dropped, but there again, I don't see how this happens out in space. I think that you have to assume that the near-perfect vacuum of space is a near-perfect insulator, and then wherever there is an aggregation of matter, you've got an extension cord that you can use, and if the resistance goes way down, the amps go way up, and the z-pinch kicks in. But where did this current come from, and how did it get through several or many lightyears of a near-perfect insulator? Total resistance is the resistance per distance times the distance. Several lightyears of a near perfect insulator equals absolutely no current at all. Then again, if a perfect vacuum is a perfect conductor, you can easily get a current, but then it would go around the matter in the nebula, and you still have nothing. So I don't see the presence of the conditions that would cause a pinch like this, and I consider this to be just observation & attribution, but without any similitude.
As concerns the way you're trashing the mainstream treatment of supernovae, I wholeheartedly agree! Heat from the thermalization of relativistic ejecta from a nuclear explosion does not cause condensation. Cold causes condensation. Heat causes dispersion. It's just that simple. IMO, the relationship between supernovae and star formation is very different. But I'll wait to be asked about that.
PersianPaladin wrote: Here are some laboratory examples of spherical "plasma ball" striations happening when the temperature of a plasma discharge is varied very significantly. [...] I maintain that star-formation is actually far more simple than many of us might think. Since we can have a good indication of formation - this can then lead to later theories as to how we deal with the perpetuation of the discharge throughout the galactic environment.
I'd like to question just how easy it is to establish similitude between the various forms of plasma discharges and the formation of stars and planets. Does this produce spherules? (It's an SR-71 jet engine in afterburner mode.) It's definitely plasma, and it definitely looks like beads on a string. So I think that your model predicts spherules.
sr71engb.jpg
Did any of the plasma discharges that you cite form any spherules? If not, why not?
Here's what Eric Lerner told me (he works with DPF's):-
Q. With regard to your research on dense plasmoids, do you think that Arp's hypothesis essentially leads to the conclusion that galaxies are essentially a form of dense plasmoid powered by external currents and steep voltage gradients in space plasma?
I think Chip Arp has demonstrated strong evidence that part of the AGN and quasar redshift is intrinsic. I don't think he has convincing evidence for his theory of galaxy formation or for his explanation of what the intrinsic z is caused by. As to the DPF plasmoids, they certainly get moving soon after formation, but the velocities we have observed of around 1000 km/sec are small compared to c, so could not explain large z. There are a lot of good reasons to think that velocities in plasma formation are scale-invariant, so I would not expect relativistic velocities in processes similar to the DPF on galactic scales. Of course, we can't rule out that there are other plasma processes that can accelerate bulk plasma to these velocities, but we have not observed that yet.
Q. On the 19th of May 2012, I published an exclusive piece for Zaman titled "Is there a revolution coming in space science?". It covers the work of a small band of scientists that promote the "Electric Universe" paradigm that attempts to expand on plasma cosmology. In the article I cover ESA's May 2012 discovery of filamentary star formation regions in dusty interstellar clouds, with the filaments remaining at a consistent width and with star formation occuring in the densest regions where currents intersect. Would you agree that this has implications for your work with dense plasmoids in the laboratory?
Researchers have been finding filamentary structures, often with hard evidence of magnetic compression, at all scales for decades. Filaments attract each other if the current are in the same direction and you get stronger pinching and higher density where they come together. This is not new, but an extension of a lot of work by many.
Q. Do you agree that we should seriously consider the possibility that stars are plasmoids that form in regions where electric currents in plasma merge and become focussed via magnetic forces?
I think a lot of evidence has been observed for this.
Remember - regarding the z-pinch process of what you're seeing in Supernova 1987A and other bipolar nebulae. These are dynamic and ongoing processes happening at very large-scales. Basically, explosive events. I'd be cautious about using the word "steady". What you're seeing is essentially a focus of energy and exploding double-layers - reflecting experiments done by Perratt et al.
In their "explanation of the physical processes", it says, "Meridional flow carries surface magnetic flux towards the poles, causing the fields to reverse". Astronomers have come to think of the magnetic force like a fluid, that can flow through flux tubes, or be transported by convection.
But no, that's not an explanation of physical processes. Calling it "physical" actually constitutes fraud, since they know full well that magnetism just doesn't act that way.
If you're on the look-out for such bastardizations of physics, they're easy to spot. Then you have to look carefully for whether or not there are actually any real data in there at all. Sometimes are there are none.
Siggy_G wrote:What's that?Aside from the fact that scientists have been working on focus fusion for 50 years, and still haven't gotten it to work, we should distinguish between impulsive versus steady-state configurations. If the question concerns planetary nebulae, which take thousands of years at the very least to form, an impulsive model starts out challenged. Then, when you actually look at the potentials getting discharged in focus fusion, and then you scale those up to consider how they would work in a nebula, you get potentials that just aren't possible in the excellent conductivity of plasma. And if anything in the Universe did discharge potentials like that, everything in the Universe would be dead now.
