Abstract: The solar wind (SW) has several enigmatic properties among which is the unexplained high maximum velocity of the fast SW (~ 800 km/s). Additionally, after leaving the Sun, this stream of charged particles accelerates – increases its velocity. Previously proposed mechanisms have not fully explained how this increasing velocity can occur nor how it can attain its high final value. A numerical analysis is performed on an assumed fast solar wind velocity profile that quantitatively identifies the acceleration experienced by a proton within that wind as a function of its radial distance. An electric-field strength required to produce the assumed acceleration of such singly charged particles is also quantitatively determined, presented and discussed. The application of Maxwell's equations to a non-quasineutral plasma identifies the shape of a solely positive (+ion) charge density that will produce this electric field in a spherical geometry such as the one in which the Sun finds itself.
seasmith
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
` jc wrote:
One problem I had with the anode model is that... there are many statements regarding the obvious similiarities between anode tufting and the sun's chromospere. But I can't find any pictures of laboratory anode tufting to judge for myself.
(note- yes the "magnetic heartbeat" mentioned earlier is comp-sim, but the periodicity is apparently empirical. we'll see if anything actually comes of it.... also "AC", and pulsed DC are period-relative terms, imo)
s
CharlesChandler
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
In the referenced paper by Scott:
8. Stability of the 'Excess' Positive Charge Density A question that might be asked by critics of this proposed mechanism for producing the required electric field strength is, "What maintains the positive charge density in the shape that it must maintain (shown in figure 6)?" To maintain a distribution of matter that is more concentrated than it would normally be in quiescent conditions, there must be a power input to it. A case-in-point is the steady state large standing-wave that can form at the bottom of certain water slides. In figure 7, the wave would collapse if the strong flow coming in from the left were to stop. The height of the water wave is higher than what would be expected in a more slowly moving river. A continuous flow of ions maintains the 'excess' charge density in figure 6.
There must be power into it, and there must be a voltage regulator. Can those be explained?
seasmith wrote: Some images of lab "anode tufting"...
Those are less than convincing, since I couldn't see anything except a garden-variety glow discharge. When he speaks of tufts as "sticking up like little balls of cotton, or little volcanos", that isn't how someone would describe solar granules.
Beautiful. I was really struggling with the solar wind data. I'm lucky enough to have it summarized and broken down by Don Scott himself in this wonderful paper. You can tell he used to be a Prof, explains clearly and concisely. Thanks Michael for posting this.
seasmith wrote: Some images of lab "anode tufting":
Finaly .... nice toys in the videos btw You guys are the best, thanks so much.
Looks like Johnson doesn't quite have the "smoking gun" so to speak, but a hell of a critique. Looking forward to more (and better) data.
Now reading about Juergen's estimates of solar output.... they look more like guesstimates than estimates. I also have my own doubts about using using luminosity to estimate power output.
seasmith wrote: also "AC", and pulsed DC are period-relative terms, imo)
Agreed... I guess in my mind I consider pulsed DC as AC because it has a major AC component... remnants of my shortlived beginnings doing a Masters in digital signal processing.... those Fourier, Laplace and Z transforms keep hanging around in my brain for some reason LOL. I did start thinking of a periodic pulse as oppose to a nicely curved sine wave at a certain point but ... step by step, trying not to bite off more than I can chew ...
upriver
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
starbiter wrote: The link below has the latest on the acceleration of the solar wind from Dr Scott.
Abstract: The solar wind (SW) has several enigmatic properties among which is the unexplained high maximum velocity of the fast SW (~ 800 km/s). Additionally, after leaving the Sun, this stream of charged particles accelerates – increases its velocity. Previously proposed mechanisms have not fully explained how this increasing velocity can occur nor how it can attain its high final value. A numerical analysis is performed on an assumed fast solar wind velocity profile that quantitatively identifies the acceleration experienced by a proton within that wind as a function of its radial distance. An electric-field strength required to produce the assumed acceleration of such singly charged particles is also quantitatively determined, presented and discussed. The application of Maxwell's equations to a non-quasineutral plasma identifies the shape of a solely positive (+ion) charge density that will produce this electric field in a spherical geometry such as the one in which the Sun finds itself.
From the paper Don Scott says "Heavier (multiply ionized) particles can achieve accelerations almost as great as single protons under the influence of such an E -field. Selective acceleration of heavy ions however remains unexplained."
From the mysteries of the Cathode spot paper which could have an explanation... "A further astonishing fact of arc spots is the high kinetic energy of ions leaving the cathodic plasma cloud toward the walls and the anode [21], [22] (i.e., in a direction seemingly opposite to the general electric field in gas discharges; the ion part of the arc current is negative). A simple theory discloses an explanation [23], [24] that may be considered as sufficiently convincing: The ions are accelerated by three forces: 1) the pressure gradient within the cathodic plasma; 2) the electron-ion friction; and 3) the electric field, which has the opposite direction in the plasma expansion zone, forming a potential hump near the cathode spot. Electrons are accelerated by the dominating pressure gradient also, but are slowed down by friction and the electric field. Thus, the electrical resistance of the expanding plasma is negative, doubtless a further strange property of arc spots."
justcurious
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
I forgot to thank PersianPalladin for his excellent posts and supporting links and papers. And especially for those awesome videos showing examples of spherical plasma in labs. Thank you!
seasmith
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
PP wrote:
A careful analysis of the Cygnus Loop Nebula suggests that the brighter filaments are those that are the most densely packed, with the less bright filaments a bit more spaced out. You can also observe spaced out filaments that appear to merge together:- http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/6335%20...%2046-710.jpg
Of course, things are a lot more complex than this and there is a limit to how much one can infer from visual observation alone.
Have had the large image of that one as mac background for about a year, and still every view informs anew, a nice complete translucent perspective . ~∞~
Michael Mozina
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
seasmith wrote: ` jc wrote:
One problem I had with the anode model is that... there are many statements regarding the obvious similiarities between anode tufting and the sun's chromospere. But I can't find any pictures of laboratory anode tufting to judge for myself.
Actually, the first video at least is based upon a *cathode* sun, and his comparisons to the sun are spot on! He specifically reversed polarity in that video and turned the sphere into a cathode. The "photosphere" shows up very nicely, as does the corona (at least according to his statements).
The other think I noticed while watching his various videos is that the 'flash" discharges all occur at the cathode, just like solar flares.
seasmith
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
Michael Mozina wrote:
seasmith wrote: ` jc wrote:
One problem I had with the anode model is that... there are many statements regarding the obvious similiarities between anode tufting and the sun's chromospere. But I can't find any pictures of laboratory anode tufting to judge for myself.
Actually, the first video at least is based upon a *cathode* sun, and his comparisons to the sun are spot on! He specifically reversed polarity in that video and turned the sphere into a cathode. The "photosphere" shows up very nicely, as does the corona (at least according to his statements).
The other think I noticed while watching his various videos is that the 'flash" discharges all occur at the cathode, just like solar flares.
yes, i should have said electrode tufting. s
Michael Mozina
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
seasmith wrote: yes, i should have said electrode tufting. s
As that saying goes: One test is worth a thousand expert opinions. In this particular case, the videos he released are quite telling as it relates to the cathode tufting IMO. As I watched the various videos he posted, the one observation that struck me the most were the small tufted discharges seen to occur all over the sphere, or near the cathode. The cathode seems to produce "point (arc) discharges" not just glow mode discharges. In each case these formed near the cathode. With the sphere *as* a cathode, the point discharges definitely resemble flare discharges in the solar atmosphere. IMO that cathode arc discharge observation is the key to understanding the sun's charge with respect to space. IMO his lab work *strongly* suggests that the sun acts as a cathode, not an anode.
PersianPaladin
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
Some of the usage of electrical engineering terminology here with respect to plasma physics; is really quite embarassing to be honest.
An anode arc discharge and cathode arc discharge, depending on the context with respect to the circuit involved - will both display the same properties. We're talking about differences in the polarity of voltage here. With the Anode Sun - we have the flow of electrons to the Sun from a lower potential (much lower current-density and voltage) galactic environment to the anomalously higher potential discharge of the Sun. After all, if the Sun is an electric body then it's mere presence within its galactic location would present a very strong high-potential anomaly and a large amount of relative ionization (larger population of positive ions than its surroundings). We know this from the general low magnetic flux and nTesla readings from galactic filaments and those within molecular clouds. It is the filamentary "hub" regions (where stars form) - that have much higher magnetic field readings along with the respective high radiation. Our Sun, will be an Anode - it is an electron attractor and source of ions. The galactic cathode is the electron donor. A concentrated plasma sphere with a large amount of ionized atomic specie relative to the surrounding galactic environment will naturally become a positive-polarity with respect to its environment.
Although I will clarify that "anode" and "cathode" will differ depending on the medium and the type of context. For example, in the case of the vacuum tube:-
In electronic vacuum devices such as a cathode ray tube, the anode is the positively charged electron collector. In a tube, the anode is a charged positive plate that collects the electrons emitted by the cathode through electric attraction. It also accelerates the flow of these electrons.
Do we need to detect electron currents at large distances outward from the Sun flowing into it? No. Again, the quasi-neutrality of space plasma means that opposite charges can accumulate at very close distances within small double-layers where the potential difference and discharge takes place. I will soon post evidence clarifying this a bit more. Again, the same happens with respect to comets and their surrounding environment (long-distance Coloumb interactions resulting in charge accumalation near the nucleus)- except they are discharging to a higher potential positive-polarity E-field environment and thus can be referred to as "cathodes".
seasmith
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
~ The preceding discussion has all been very edifying, but the whole Anode/Cathode question may be a mite moot. Let's think right outside the box for a moment.
The sun, in its most primary electric function, acts as spherical transformer. [yes, transformers can be spherical, it's their most efficient form]
It exhibits all the main characteristics of a transformer: It transfers energy, incorporates conductive layers, performs RF transformations. It exhibits oscillating polarities / magnetic fields, flux leakage and power mode conversions. It creates heat, (seismic) vibrations and sound. It may even have an iron or metallic hydrogen core.
Electrodes may be hemispheric and/or antipodal. We are not sure about the nature of all the involved 'current' flows, so we cannot define the electrodes as yet; but to assume the sun as a point electrode of only one relative polarity just seems far too simplistic for such a complex electric device, imo.
Solar
Anode Spot Arc
One can have "jets" emitted from cathode spots under electric discharge phenomena as is known but one can *ALSO* have anode spot arcs and the emission of anode plumes as well. Consider the following please:
When a region of the anode becomes sufficiently hot to emit vapor, an anode spot is formed. If the anodic vapor pressure is sufficiently high to overcome the momentum flux from the cathode spot jets, an anodic plasma plume will penetrate into the inter-electrode space, as seen here extending downwards from the upper electrode (anode). This photograph was taken a few ms's after the previous photo, during the same Cu vacuum arc pulse, but here with a current of about 4 kA. The anodic plasma plume also confines the propagation of the cathode plasma jet, here shown as a narrow layer close to the cathode surface. – ARCS AND SPARKS PHOTO GALLERY: Tel Aviv University
I posted that reference, and do watch the film, a few years ago and simply never let go of it because it has the finest example of the 'suppression' of cathode emission as plasma 'condenses' on the anode surface. Note that the "anode" is on the right –hand side as you watch the film; the "cathode" is on the left. To the point made by Persian Paladin the nomenclature has been a long standing problem. It causes a lot of digging through the literature because there are so very many interpretive explanations used to establish conceptual relations to electrical phenomena both theoretical and experimental; we all know how frustrating this can be for the independent investigator. As such the term "anode tufting" is simply a conceptualization, the principle may also be related to the term "anode sputtering" (sources).
The two posts by Persian P and Seasmith above are spot on imho. The sun 'interconverts', 'tranduces', or 'transforms' energy so there is a dual omni-directional 'conversion' process that is occurring that may see the stellar crucibles manifesting the characteristics of being either an "anode" and/or a "cathode" owing to a certain hysteresis, or "lag", in the is rhythmical 'processing' and circulation of the energy.
justcurious
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
Indeed anode/cathode/tufting/sputtering have been confusing terms. I'm embarrassed to say, that even a simple concept like anode vs cathode isn't clear cut for me, with references to electron collectors or donors, depending on whether the system is a "generator" and so on. Google searches for tufting and sputtering don't provide much insight. I think I need to access IEEE, assuming it's probably better explained and/or demonstrated in the more specialized plasma papers related to electric machining.
Regarding the spherical transformer and thinking outside the box... I find it a bit hard to wrap my head around the concept of this type of transformer. The inner coil would make the magnetic field point up/down, but the secondary outside coil is perpendicular to the magnetic field, I don't see how this acts as a transformer in practical terms, it would be a very inefficient transformer IMO. Does the transformer model address the spiraling/vortex-like nature of the heliospheric current sheet?
Regarding the importance of determining the flow of electrons far away from the Sun... PP suggests this is not important and I look forward to the evidence he will post. Personaly, I think we should explain as much as possible. When I look at the pictures of the Sun's corona, it seems pretty clear to me that the rays are stretching out in all directions (sorry about the bad terminology). These plumes also tend to narrow and filament suggesting Birkeland currents. They are either reaching out to something at the heliosphere, and/or towards the planets. Would it be possible to use a novelty plasma ball analogy to explain this? Regarding the Birkeland currents found in the aura here on Earth and elsewhere, we should try and understand why these currents appear, is it because of a potential difference? Or could it be simply a sort of "short circuit" where the currents follow the path of least resistance? What about the cyclical nature of the Sun's magnetic field? Are we looking at an AC current? Or mostly a DC current with an AC component? And while on the topic of the Sun's magnetic field, dose anyone know what it looks like? Because from what I read so far the North and South magnetic poles are separated by the HCS which extends all the way out to the Heliosphere. So where would the field lines meet? If they don't, then we have a Sun composed of two monopoles, something considered impossible by all scientists and engineers. It has been observed that at times, for perhaps an entire month, the Sun would have two magnetic poles of the same polarity.
seasmith
Re: The Anode Sun Vs The Plasmoid Model
~ JC wrote,
And while on the topic of the Sun's magnetic field, dose anyone know what it looks like?
Locations of key events are labeled in this extreme ultraviolet image of the sun, obtained by the Solar Dynamics Observatory during the Great Eruption of August 1st. White lines trace the sun's magnetic field. Credit: K Schrijver & A. Title. [larger image]
.... nice toys in the videos btw
