Neither the basalt spires nor the coulees were cut by glaciers in anyone's theory. How the coulees were apparently formed was from a spectacular rush of water originating from Glacial Lake Missoula to the east. Also called the "Spokane Floods" these powerful currents gouged out the coulees in a matter of days. In the process, pinnacles or spires of columnar basalt were left in several locations around the plateau, where resistant sections or weaker currents were in place. Hanging valleys like Palouse Falls are always spectacular, and attest to another aspect of my theory which I've described in the OP — the basalt flows were not yet "cold" when the flooding happened, allowing cracks or joints in flows to receive volumes of water into their underparts, where hot rock steamblasted whole sections of overlying basalt away into the overflowing currents. This seems to me to be the most plausible explanation for the potholes, coulees, and those combs of columnar basalt seen around the area. Other supporting evidence is the prevalence of the columnar basalt along the sides of coulees-- this shows that in many cases the steep walls were not the result of mechanical scouring, as much as the incursion of flowing water into the columnar joints, pushing [or steamblasting] out whole columns of material at once. I don't visualize EDM type action being able to leave/create such structures either, although I do not discount an overarching electrical agent in the great cataclysm.
Andrew
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
I've been spending time at Cook's website and carrying on a private e-mail correspondence with him. He has a tremendous amount of material in his web book. It is really helping me get a better handle on the Thunderbolts presentation, with an eye to what may still be in contention with other Saturnian cosmologists out there.
There are many hidden gems, observations that I've never come across in Cardona or Talbot's work. Cook is not shy about offering precise dates for various catastrophes. It is refreshing to see this, as a chronology of events is something that the Thunderbolts seems to be avoiding. Whether this is from a hesitancy of making any proclamation until more mythological material is studied, or whether there is a fear of loose ends overwhelming the paradigm, I wonder.
If you take the time you can find the references he uses to fix various dates. The Chilam Balam seems to offer a lot. His big difference with Cardona/Talbot is his belief that Saturn lost the earth as a satellite millions of years ago, but recaptured it at the end of the last ice age when it re-entered our solar system, whereupon the conjunction was re-established. Also, he has Mercury in the place of Talbot's Venus. Cook also incorporates Peratt's southern ball plasmoids and the Duat/Absu planetary rings that created the visual of the southern seas, the home of the dead.
If you can suspend your judgment about these opposing views to the Thunderbolts storyline, the rest of his work is remarkably similar, but much more fleshed out. How about Mars rising and falling within the conjunction between Saturn and Earth 10 times over 300 years, starting at around 3,000 B.C.E.? Humans were able to have a predictable relationship with this god over this time, which influenced much of the barrows and henges built in Europe. According to his story, the henges would dance with St. Elmo's fire as Mars came closer. There's also the story of the vapor dome in the north Atlantic ocean that routinely was the first place the arc from Mars hit. The barrows built during that time were oriented toward that point. Tripped out or what??
He doesn't say why humans wanted henges that danced with fire or how it was used, but I offer that as my excited question. There's lots more interesting stuff in Cook's work. I'm starting to believe that a wanna-be scholar who resonates with the Thunderbolts perspective ought to take in Jno Cook as a valuable resource. Otherwise you could be missing something!
Andrew
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
Sorry to be going off topic on this thread, but wanted to share some more of Cook's insights and a bit of the controversy that is still swirling around him and his work, in relation to the Thunderbolts viewpoints:
"I should point out also that the electrical contact with Venus was the core of Velikovsky's book Worlds in Collision, where it is supposed that Venus traveled on a path that brought it close to Earth — "nearly collided." This of course is nonsense, since planets do not alter their orbits to nearly collide with one another. If this had happened, we would not be here to tell the tale of Venus. Argueing backward, it is obvious that Mars after 800 BC did come very close, with an unbelievable amount of damage done to Earth by such a tiny planet. If this had been Venus, Earth would have been destroyed. The contact, the "near collision" with Venus, happened at a separation distance, I estimate, of some 10,000,000 miles.
Many catastrophists still accept Velikovsky's ideas. Others, such as Talbott, Thornhill, and Cardona of the Thunderbolts group, hold that nothing ever happened: not with Venus in 1500 BC (the period under discussion here) or with Mars after 800 BC (covered in a later chapter). Considering (as I do) the huge assembly of mythology which recounts these events, spread over three continents, with Mesoamerica detailing this with identifiable dates, I am astounded at the oversight. What else could be to be expected as the winding down of the cataclysm of 3147 BC with the removal of Saturn except further adjustments and interactions of the loosened planets?
I come to the conclusion that very large chunks of history have been overlooked by some researchers. I discovered and detailed the fall of the Absu in 2349 BC and the resurrection of Jupiter, and discovered the blazing of Venus and Mercury in 685 BC and the plasmoid delivered from Jupiter to the Sun. The Thunderbolts people have remained completely unaware of these goings on. "
More off-topic, but in my very limited reading of some of Cooks pages, I see that he completely dismisses the idea of advanced races ever having visited Earth in the past. Now seeing as his whole work is based on a coherent mythology, why does he not consider the coherent mythology from many parts of the world which talks about the Gods coming from the skies to help them with agriculture, animal husbandry, astronomy? And, IMMO (in my Mad opinion) if any planets or Moons ever left their original positions, it was more than likely a God with some pretty awesome engineering skills, and not a random catastrophic event. What are the odds of Earth ending up after this cosmic catastrophe in just the right spot, with just the right Moon, for life on Earth to even survive, let alone flourish? I think we need a Cook thread.
GaryN
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
Also called the "Spokane Floods" these powerful currents gouged out the coulees in a matter of days.
After the initial turbulent front of a sudden release, the water flow becomes laminar, and no further erosion at the river bed or banks occurs. Forget the water gouging, go fully electric/plasma. However, I would like to have a read of this book, On the Trail of the Ice Age Floods, just to compare interpretations of what he/they see vs what I think I see. http://www.sandpointonline.com/catalog/ ... cts_id=228
the basalt flows were not yet "cold" when the flooding happened, allowing cracks or joints in flows to receive volumes of water into their underparts, where hot rock steamblasted whole sections of overlying basalt away into the overflowing currents.
So you are saying that whole area was still hot enough to create steam explosions? How had that huge area been heated to such temperatures? From what I can find, the volcanic lava covering the area is dated between 10 and 30 million years old, so a recent flooding was not the cause, I don't care how big a flood, it won't erode granite on those scales in a matter of days.
Other supporting evidence is the prevalence of the columnar basalt along the sides of coulees-- this shows that in many cases the steep walls were not the result of mechanical scouring, as much as the incursion of flowing water into the columnar joints, pushing [or steamblasting] out whole columns of material at once.
Very imaginative, not mechanically possible, IMO.
Lloyd
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
From what I can find, the volcanic lava covering the area is dated between 10 and 30 million years old, so a recent flooding was not the cause
* Why are you giving conventional dating any credence? The continents are made of mostly sedimentary rock strata. Most or all of the sedimentary strata were likely deposited all at once within a matter of days, forming a supercontinent, which soon broke up into the continents. The Grand Canyon was formed when Grand and Hopi Lakes were breached a few thousand years ago. It formed while the sedimentary strata were still soft, a few hundred years after the Great Flood, probably about the same time as the Missoula flood in the Pacific Northwest. See http://creationscience.com/onlinebook/GrandCanyon.html and http://creationscience.com/onlinebook/Liquefaction.html and http://creationscience.com/onlinebook/Radioactivity2.html#w~ etc.
GaryN
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
Why are you giving conventional dating any credence?
I'm not, that is the standard estimate, I think, based on how long conventional weathering would have taken to produce the surface features.
Most or all of the sedimentary strata were likely deposited all at once within a matter of days,
Or less, but I'll agree with that.
forming a supercontinent, which soon broke up into the continents.
Why didn't the continents break into smaller pieces too? Much of what has happened with surface erosion will depend on the initial conditions, which is what hampers most computer modelling efforts. Was the landscape just a flat sand desert before the flood or electrical storm? Were there any mountains or hills, or rivers? There is so much we don't know.
The Grand Canyon was formed when Grand and Hopi Lakes were breached a few thousand years ago.
Ah, that's where the similarity to Valles Marineris comes from! Pure speculation Lloyd. From one of your links:
Two lakes, Grand Lake and Hopi Lake, which may have existed in the past, probably about the same time as the Missoula flood
More speculation. Not that I can knock you or they for speculating, do a fair bit of that myself! My speculation that seems to be holding up best is for the iron ion bombardment of the Earth. Those ions would be from the Sun, from the inner confinement shells. The Mother of all CME's. The distribution of iron rich silicates such as the red dust found all around here, even though the bedrock is not iron rich, would seem to be best explained by surface dissociation by such energetic iron ions. There would, later, be waves of less heavy ions, and all would be pulsed, which then gets us into some very complex interactions, as we get into piezoelectric, and the reverse, changes in dielectric properties, reluctance, etc, and then how all those changes affect each other, it makes my head spin anyway. Unfortunately, the pulsed ion source with fast rise times and sufficient oomph to try and reproduce any of the observed natural formations is rather out of my financial reach (I'm broke from all this studying the EU instead of getting a job!) and the math to try and model it is way beyond me. Next I need to look into clays a little more, as in the maps I have found there seems to be a strong correlation of such deposits to the iron rich silicates. Here's a little light reading (the text is rather faint) of a study of sediments in the Fox river using the magnetic properties to try and determine the source rock locations. http://il.water.usgs.gov/pubs/wrir91_4013.pdf
Andrew
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
Yes, Gary N. - a Cook thread would be welcome
Lloyd - are you an administrator? Interested in setting this up? I know Cook's work is a bit controversial within the Thunderbolts clan, but he has a lot on offer. I would be pleased to offer comments and help keep the thread running.
Gary N. - I think that both Cook and the Thunderbolts are eager to distance themselves from the ET question as well as advanced human type races on earth prior to the last ice age. The whole idea of gods appears to be a literalized observation of planetary bodies interacting with each other. These are/were the gods. There weren't any other.
Personally, I'm open to the ET debate, but don't think it factors in the EU cosmology paradigm. There's plenty material to uncover yet, without speculation on off-planet races being part of the mix, IMMO..
The Aten
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
GaryN
Have you considered an extraterrestrial source for the iron rich silicates?
And the fact that tons of iron micrometeorites (and sand) are still falling to earth on a daily basis... along with iron meteorites, the legacy of the Mercury from Mars event.
Gg
nick c
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
hi Andrew,
The whole idea of gods appears to be a literalized observation of planetary bodies interacting with each other. These are/were the gods. There weren't any other.
That is correct, although I would replace "planetary" with the broader "celestial" which would include the planets as well as other astral phenomena.
a Cook thread would be welcome
You or anyone else could start a thread on that subject.
Have you considered an extraterrestrial source for the iron rich silicates?
Yes, but that got me wondering how the surface of Mars got to be so iron rich. Volcanic material from the core, or iron in surface water flows seems to be the proffered mechanisms, but I have had a look at the surface composition of Mars, and I believe all the elements necessary could have been from a CME that ejected the ions contained within the various shells of the Sun.
And the fact that tons of iron micrometeorites (and sand) are still falling to earth on a daily basis... along with iron meteorites, the legacy of the Mercury from Mars event.
I think the sand and micrometeorites are believed to be the result of collisions between objects in the Solar equatorial disk, the particles responsible for the Zodiacal light. I'm not keen on that idea, as all the particles should be equally, and probably highly charged, so collisions seem doubtful. I'll agree that material removed from other planetary surfaces could find it's way to Earth eventually too, but the idea that some planets, including Earth, moved around and got so close to each other, not so much. It may have appeared that way to the ancients, but then they weren't aware of the affects of our, or other planets ionospheres being responsible for how things appear from Earths surface. Even the larger comets would not be visible without our ionosphere, and the only images from space (other than from SOHO, which is a different beast) rely on Earths ionosphere. http://listosaur.com/science-a-technolo ... story.html (Giottos colour camera, from the last image on that page, was built by the Max Planck Institute, and is no ordinary camera, plus it took a lot of calibration and post processing to get the images right) So, when all the ionospheres were being hit by fronts and waves of ions, the heavens would indeed have looked much different. Appearances can be very deceptive, I'd say.
webolife wrote: Neither the basalt spires nor the coulees were cut by glaciers in anyone's theory.
IIRC when I was a schoolchild (the mid-60s) that was everyone's theory
webolife wrote: How the coulees were apparently formed was from a spectacular rush of water originating from Glacial Lake Missoula to the east. Also called the "Spokane Floods" these powerful currents gouged out the coulees in a matter of days. In the process, pinnacles or spires of columnar basalt were left in several locations around the plateau, where resistant sections or weaker currents were in place.
Lloyd wrote: The Grand Canyon was formed when Grand and Hopi Lakes were breached a few thousand years ago. It formed while the sedimentary strata were still soft, a few hundred years after the Great Flood, probably about the same time as the Missoula flood in the Pacific Northwest.
We humans sometimes (oftentimes?) confuse cause and effect when we're short on verifiable data. In this case hundreds of years ago the first Geologists said "oh look, the floods/rivers created the canyons!" when in reality the situation is the canyons allow a place for the rivers to flow. At the Dry Falls Visitor Center is a super informative diorama of how the Coulees were formed by the Missoula Floods. It's very visual, and really expresses the state of the art on that theory. However the first time I saw it as a youngster I felt like it was baloney, because I already had extensive "experience" in applied hydrodynamics - with several butt-whippings and time-outs from my Mom to show for it.
In terms of verifiable "laboratory data" when I was a youngster first playing in the dirt in the backyard with my Tonka trucks and the garden hose I loved to build long involved river channels and lakes, etc in my Mom's garden beds (our backyard was on a significant slant). I discovered as a child through experimentation that "floods" would carve a channel through the soft dirt for only a very short distance even when supplemented with the continual backup flow of a fully turned up garden hose. The water flow would ALWAYS eventually fan out and no longer cut a channel. So, instead to carve those long sinuous river channels you had to first laboriously dig the "river" channels and "lakes" along the entire 50-odd feet of geographical landscape otherwise known as my Mom's flower bed - THEN when it was done, introduce the water (garden hose) at the top end, and let 'er rip (while standing and admiring my handiwork) I believe in the "real world" that's how God/Mother Nature did it too.
Also, there are threads here on this Forum that discuss the Grand Canyon landscape with great scientific rigor that make a pretty convincing case for EU forces as the cause.
But the most compelling reason for that to be the case is the problem of "where is all the dirt?" In both the Grand Canyon and the Coulees/Palouse River Canyon case all the dirt is not downriver somewhere or out in the Ocean. It's up on the rolling hills and plateaus surrounding the canyons. The best example I've seen of a spectacular Canyon clearly NOT carved by water is discovered when you drive east on Highway 2 up out of Orondo (a few miles north of Wenatchee). And when you get to the top you can see all the way to the horizon in 3 directions where all that dirt ended up from God's "electric canyon router" (I think Tim the Tool Man would have called it the "Binford 3000 Cosmic Double Layer Tornado Router" ). Also, lots of rocks, and quite a few freaking huge boulders sitting in the middle of some poor farmer's wheatfield. Sorry, but no "flood" put those there.
webolife wrote: Other supporting evidence is the prevalence of the columnar basalt along the sides of coulees-- this shows that in many cases the steep walls were not the result of mechanical scouring, as much as the incursion of flowing water into the columnar joints, . . .
Its true that columnar basalt formations are EVERYWHERE along the sides of coulees and canyons. But, they're even out in the middle of the rolling hill country and on the TOPS of the hills too. IIRC the EU explanation for the Devils Tower, WY formation was a mammoth circuit that "pulled" material up out of the ground into a tower. From that example, I have come to infer that the columnar basalt along the canyon walls was again due to the "electric double layer tornado" router-like effect actually electrically pulling material up the walls and melting it into place as it moved along its path. But, again that's my opinion, based on a possibly faulty understanding of EU effects.
You guys are way above my pay grade scientifically as my earlier personal story reveals. I enjoy scientific discussion, which is why I'm here, but I have no science background. I'm commenting on this thread only because I love PNW geography! These are the thoughts I have whenever I drive around in it. So, if you have more plausible explanation, please point me to the threads, or sources that better explain that - I'm all ears! It makes the scenery more thought-provoking. Thank You!
GaryN
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
the problem of "where is all the dirt?"
Plus the material from the countless rivers, creeks and streams that drain into the Palouse. If anyone was to calculate the total volume of the missing material, given the present landform, it would be staggering. However, I have a suspicion that most of the ridges between valleys were pulled up to some degree, maybe greatly, as the existing landform would be heat softened due to the tremendous density and speed of electrons from the ground heading for the tornado tip would create resistance heating. There are other scenarios, where a pulsating electric field can create heating in the bedrock by mechanical friction or crystal lattice stresses due to the piezoelectric effect. This softened material can, from what I see in my area, be sculpted into some pretty impressive shapes by the 'melee' of electric and magnetic fields and flows (the vortex is evident) that must have existed in particular locations.
In terms of verifiable "laboratory data" when I was a youngster first playing in the dirt in the backyard
I was considering (but the weather just turned nasty) heading to a sandy beach where a small creek empties into the ocean to take some photos. When the tide goes out, the creek water cuts a fresh channel to the ocean, and the same process you observed in your back yard occurs. The channel remains very shallow and spreads out. The sides erode slowly, with slumps of the damp sand along the edges falling into the flow. I have seen kids (big and small) dam the water flow and create a pool, then breach the dam, which very quickly widens at that point. Yes, there is some bottom erosion close to the breach, forming a depression close to the breach, but only a few feet from the breach, the water becomes laminar again and no, or very little further bottom erosion occurs. The deep cutting model does not work, a simple fact.
"electric double layer tornado" router-like effect actually electrically pulling material up the walls and melting it into place
Up or down or maybe both. In some instances, and it is more evident on Mars I think, the tornado model is pulling up material from the bottom centre of the channel, and there is an inflow of material which is pulled down the sides of the channel. With the Palouse, the hexagonal columns might suggest magnetic forces being involved, but again, the number of variables in the forces and processes involved could make it difficult to calculate or model what is happening. If only it was as easy as playing in the back yard. Anyway, good observations Mr Doogle! Around Wenatchee (you will need to turn on Terrain) there seem to be 2 variations of process, as on one side of the Coulmbia there seems to be excavations in a flat landscape, and lifting of the landscape on the other side. Would it be reasonable to assume that it was all flat before the event/s? https://maps.google.ca/maps?client=ubun ... CCAQ8gEwAA
but I have no science background.
That can be a big advantage in some cases, as you have no preconceptions to blind common sense, a quality that seems sorely lacking in some highly educated types.
webolife
Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism
I concur with several of the points made here by both Gary and JW, eg: -- Water currents alone, no matter the volume, do not seem mechanically capable of creating the coulee walls we see. This is why there was for a time a glacial cut theory in the books. This is why I invoke a more recent dating of the basalt plateau, not in the 20 million year BP range but in the several millenia BP. I believe the columnar joints of the cool-ING basalt allowed the water to seep and flow down into the lower regions of the [still boiling-warm] flows creating the necessary conditions for steamblasting the sidewalls out. A great place to observe this close up is at the Frenchman coulee just off the Gorge Amphitheater exit between George and Vantage down the old Vantage road. Here the comb-like pinnacle columnar basalt formation is very impressive, along with the cut-away crevices along the side of the adjacent plateau which demonstrate not hydraulic streamcutting but dramatic separation of the columns at the joints... why or how water currents alone would or could do this is as much a mystery to me as to JW. Since the time of Harland Bretz, Bates McKee, et.al., most geologists have accepted that the coulees were water cut, but without offering adequate [IMO] mechanism for the undercutting of the basalt columns that typifies both the coulee and pothole walls. A remarkable example of this is just below the Blue Lake Rhino cave at Blue Lake... JW, have you been to this unusual site, or to the Frenchman coulee location? I'd love to meet you there and for a short few hour trip to the Rhino if you're interested. It's a 3+ hour drive from Seattle, so PM me if you wish.
). Also, lots of rocks, and quite a few freaking huge boulders sitting in the middle of some poor farmer's wheatfield. Sorry, but no "flood" put those there.
webolife wrote:Its true that columnar basalt formations are EVERYWHERE along the sides of coulees and canyons. But, they're even out in the middle of the rolling hill country and on the TOPS of the hills too. IIRC the EU explanation for the Devils Tower, WY formation was a mammoth circuit that "pulled" material up out of the ground into a tower. From that example, I have come to infer that the columnar basalt along the canyon walls was again due to the "electric double layer tornado" router-like effect actually electrically pulling material up the walls and melting it into place as it moved along its path. But, again that's my opinion, based on a possibly faulty understanding of EU effects.
