Thunderbolts Forum

'12-10-01, 20:14 Lloyd	Pacific Northwest Catastrophism * Web asked me to post this for him. Is Pacific Northwest geology attributable to recent catastrophes? Present Features Northwestern United States has a wide variety of landscapes and geological formations, from sedimentary and metamorphic mountain ranges, to active and dormant volcanoes and vast basalt plateaus, and the deepest gorge in North America. Fossils of many types can be found throughout the region, from fronds and leaves to petrified wood (the Washington State gem), and the unique "Blue Lake Rhino", a cavity left when a lava flow covered over a small rhinoceros, then later exposed when in 1935 hikers found the rhino-shaped mold with bits of bone and teeth inside. Earthquake faults criss-cross many regions. Coal has been extensively mined. Geologically recent and modern volcanic activity marks the region, including the Yellowstone "supervolcano" caldera toward the east. A large area of surface has been explained by the action of continental glaciation, and significantly much of the Pacific Northwest was carved out by massive catastrophic "Ice Age" flooding, known as the Spokane Floods, or the Bretz Floods [after Harland Bretz, the man who first proposed them]. Standard Explanation A standard explanation reads like this: Several million years ago, an inland sea covered much of the region. Then massive lava flows, one of the largest on the planet lasting over ten million years, flowed out over the area, to depths of thousands of feet. Following this the Cascadian orogeny lifted the mountains to the west tilting the lava flows upward. This was followed sometime later by continental glaciation up to 10,000 feet in thickness. Toward the end of this epoch, perhaps 15,000 years ago, the accumulation of water in glacial Lake Missoula eventually resulted in the breech of an ice dam, allowing a sea of water to rush over the basaltic landscape to the west carving out steep canyons (known as coulees) and potholes in the area called the Channeled Scabland. Complex geologic scenarios are put forth to describe various other aspects of regional geology. There is no simple story, nor would one be expected looking at the region from a uniformitarian perspective. Uniformitarians must look at the various formations as the result of slow gradual processes occurring over many millions of years. Some geologists believe this flood scenario played out several times over a couple of millenia, but after much debate scientists generally came to recognize that the coulees of Eastern Washington were carved out by a catastrophic flood that lasted perhaps just two weeks. Evidence of Catastrophes A number of observations suggest that perhaps more than just the coulee region may be the result of catastrophic earth shaping events. One famous and well-studied recent event is the eruption of Washington's Mt. St. Helens, which left a devastated landscape with layered "grand" canyons in just a matter of hours. Some wood in the log jam of Spirit Lake was petrified and other samples were carbonized or partially "coalified", attested to by samples collected within five years of the 1980 eruption. Recent volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, and tsunamis around the world have provided paradigm shifting insight into the possibilities of catastrophic earth changing processes. How might some of these catastrophic processes have played into the picture of Washington State geology? Uniformitarian processes and standard relative dating techniques based on them have been critiqued elsewhere on TPODs, and will be set aside for the purposes of this discussion. Interlayering It is significant to this writer that much of the varied geology of the region carries a common theme, the interlayering of igneous and sedimentary materials. When such a unifying factor is discovered, the piecemeal approach common to standard modeling becomes far less attractive. It is possible that instead of millions of years of hiatus between successive flows of basalt there was a relatively concurrent series of tsunamis from the direction of the Pacific depositing various types of sediments over top of the lava flows. In some locations, gravelly, sandy or clayey layers, as well as diatomaceous earth can be found between basalt flows which elsewhere lie directly in contact with each other. Petrified wood is found at various levels between the basalt flows. The petrifying mineral is primarily opal, leeched from the silica rich basalt flows which covered over the logs, dissolved in the heated waters which flowed over the successive flows washing the logs into place. Laboratory experiments have shown that it is possible to petrify wood in a matter of hours under the right conditions, including a saturated solution and oven hot temperatures, which conditions conceivably existed between the lava flows. In addition, diatomaceous earth up to 15 or more meters in depth is found between flows in various places. Interestingly the basalt flows which overlie the diatomite can be found elsewhere directly atop the underlying basalt. This belies the standard explanation that the diatoms accrued over millions of years of sinking detritus. Instead, if diatom rich waters overflowed a hot [not necessarily molten] lava bed, it is likely that the water may boil away rapidly leaving the shells of the diatoms behind in great accumulations. The diatomite is of chalky textured silica throughout, but midway in the formation are pebble to boulder sized lenses of solid opal, recrystallized from the diatom shells. It is this researcher's opinion that the heated lava both above and below the diatomite forced steam into the middle of the diatomaceous earth dissolving and recrystallizing the silica into the opal lenses in a matter of days or weeks rather than the alleged millenia. Potholes Parts of the Channeled Scablands are also known as the Potholes; in addition to the steep sided coulees gouged from the lava plateau, there are many deep holes, typically up to 40 meters or more across and up to 10 meters deep. The standard mechanism for these potholes is cavitation by the torrential currents of the megaflood. But the rims of some pits hang over the lower parts of the pits, despite being composed of less dense vesicular basalt. How could cavitation do this, especially since the floods supposedly occurred in just a few days? An alternate explanation is that the lava beds were still relatively warm, being laid down more rapidly in succession, and more recently than standard modeling allows. Floodwaters may have poured through the brittle vesicular layers into the columnar joints of the deeper basalt, where the still warm lava heated it to steam-blasting temperatures, exploding the pits from the inside out. Recentness of the Catastrophes The interlayered pattern which is prevalent in the Columbia River Basalt plateau can also be seen in the Cascade and Olympic ranges to the west, where pillow basalts are also found, some at relatively high altitudes such as Hurricane Ridge. Mountain-building pressures and heat have metamorphosed these layers in some places in the Olympic range and the North Cascades, less so in other locations. Parts of the Cascade range are overlaid with limestone, also very likely a marine deposit. Atop and beside the Cascade range are several famous active and dormant volcanoes, including California's Mt. Shasta, Oregon's Crater Lake and Washington's Mount Rainier and Mt. St. Helens, as well as Idaho's Craters of the Moon and Wyoming's Yellowstone Park to the east. Volcanic activity here and worldwide is considered to be geologically "recent"; and if old ages commonly assumed or derived from standard methods are set aside in light of their many associated flaws, recent catastrophic forces can be shown to be responsible for much of the crustal features seen in the Pacific Northwest and around the world. Electrical Forces Involvement On many previous TPODs, grand scale processes involving electrical and plasma interactions observed elsewhere in the solar system, such as our Moon, Mars, and on asteroids and moons of outer planets, have been proposed to have forged many of the Earth's crustal features in the not-so-distant past. Astroblemes and cratering throughout the strata of the supposed geologic column associate all "epochs" of geologic formation with astronomical activity. Perhaps interplanetary interactions have given rise to recent catastrophic earth-shaping forces of earthquakes and tsunamis, flooding, ice ages, and the splitting of the continents.
'12-10-02, 15:27 promethean	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism Hi Lloyd . Are you familiar with Jno Cook's site ? This chapter especially : http://www.saturniancosmology.org/dryas.php While he has apparently been accused of "speculation" it is not of the unfounded variety IMO. He makes a coherent case for EU effects shaping this hemisphere , drastically and recently . The timelines he hypothesizes are based on the evidence that remains in the geologic column, as well as the ancient witness.
'12-10-02, 18:20 Lloyd	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism * Thanks for the link, Prome. I've seen Cook's site before, but haven't read much of that book, if any of it. I'll try to read it sometime. * At this thread, http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&am~, SJW provided a link to polystrate trees, which are fossil trees that lie in more than one rock stratum. Obviously, all strata holding the same tree fossil were deposited at about the same time. On that image search page, I found this webpage, http://www.mandley.com/advdemo/mod05/adv5430.htm, which discusses something like polystrate trees in Spirit Lake which are trees that first floated on Spirit Lake after the eruption of Mt. St. Helens in May 1980, but have since settled to the bottom, many in upright position, weighed down by their denser root sections.
'12-10-02, 18:42 promethean	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism Yeah the coolest thing about Cook is he is learning just like the rest of us and he is constantly updating his site so he doesn't have to publish . This also avoids "peer review" of which he really only has a few . Years ago I remember reading in KRONOS about the discovery of a whale skeleton (fossil) also vertically situated through stratigraphic layers ...has the science of anomalies overtaken the mainstream yet ?
'12-10-02, 22:15 promethean	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism As an ex-Coloradoan now in the Great Smokies , I find these mountains to be just as intriguing ..(also the phenom known as the "Carolina Bays".) The effect of the drive across the plains is as trance inducing as that of the western desert . One of these days the Great NW demands a visit ! ALASKA OR BUST !! Anyways the Cook site discusses the PERCUSSIVE effect or EARTH SHOCK of merging plasmaspheres that I feel has been completely overlooked in most of these Ice Age and EDM scenarios . Just sayin'.
'12-10-03, 00:43 seasmith	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism re webo/lloyd's post above: ªLast month my first small trek of the ID-WA northwest (last area to visit in the lower 48) and was impressed with the relative 'newness' (compared to say Appalachia) of the terrain and the magnitude of apparent hydrologic geomorphology. ' Cataclysmic' also came to mind, so there's a large degree of agreement with webolife's assessments. Unfortunately, eastern ID was afire, so didn't make Craters of the Moon, but have previously visited cinder-cone areas in UT/NV and can appreciate the purported relative recentness and abruptness of those igneous events. Considerable time frittered away comparing geologic survey maps and harmonic theory/analogs has additionally led to a hare/brane`d notion of successive 'waves' of tectonic motion impinging upon the western coast of the N. Am. craton, to continually resonate and diffract (in geologic time) across the continental crust. Although the waters of the Pacific are now calmed, it's borders and interfaces are still a ring of fire and maybe, V.I., BC could be a 'relatively' recent cumulative array of cinders/dunes/islands/eruptions. It's on the itinerary. But who knows ...
'12-10-03, 23:41 Lloyd	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism Cook's Theory * I read part of Cook's website now at http://saturniancosmology.org/dryas.php and I think he makes a good case for much of his theory. I think he says Earth contacted Saturn's plasmasphere 13,000 years ago, which resulted in the shock and heat wave hitting North America, incinerating all plant and animal life there and causing over 1,000 years of global cooling. The shock wave is said to have pressed down the crust of the central continent, raising the Rocky Mountains, then rebounding to form a plateau near the Rockies to the east. Anode electric currents drilled the Great Lakes, forming pulverized rock etc in humid air and flung the wet sand in globs in various directions, forming the Carolina Bays, the Nebraska dunes, the Illinois and nearby "glacial till deposits" and similar material as far as Texas etc. * I'm more skeptical of a number of aspects of his theory, but his evidence in many cases seems to be very helpful. I don't know if he's studied the problems with conventional dating methods sufficiently. Walter Brown seems to have done a better job of that offhand. I doubt that the Rockies etc formed the way he thinks, but his idea is plausible. I need to study it more and compare with other theories to see which wins. I think http://newgeology.us has the best explanation of mountain building so far.
'12-10-07, 04:23 webolife	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism Thanks for posting this, Lloyd. I would be happy to hear from other Northwesterners about observations they've made in here in "our backyard." I've familiarized myself with much of the area, but have not visited every nook nor explored every nuance. I welcome critique on my brief article [the OP], which was intended as a possible TPOD, but admittedly does not have the EU punch expected from TPODs. I also welcome both correlative info from other parts of the world, as well as challenges to the viewpoints I expressed.
'12-10-08, 08:57 Andrew	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism I am spending some time with Cook's web book and find it fascinating. He has a different view of Saturn than Talbot's theory, and thinks that Saturn has had many brushes with the Sun's solar system. He thinks Saturn gave up the Earth a long time ago (250 million years), but kept revisiting the Sun's solar system and interacting with the Earth and other planetary bodies that were once part of its influence. The last time Saturn was around, somehow hanging around in a solar orbit near the Earth, it captured the Earth and sat at the North Pole from the end of the ice age until Doomsday in 3,100 BC. This was the golden age and we loved its influence. Yet, it caused all the disruption with Earth and carved out the Great Lakes, Grand Canyon, etc., etc. Watch out you Clovis people! So what do you think of all that?! Talbot seems to think that Earth only emerged from Saturnian influence at the end of the last ice age. Big difference. What about the purple dawn, Venus and Mars conjunct along with the Earth, etc., etc.? How far is Cook apart from the Thunderbolts theory?
'12-10-08, 22:45 Lloyd	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism Great Lakes Cook seems to explain the Great Lakes and related formations very well, but that doesn't include the Grand Canyon, which likely formed shortly after the Great Flood, when Grand Lake and Hopi Lake were breached, eroding the canyon while the strata were still unhardened. Grand Canyon and Dating Methods Cook has a lot of possible additions to make to the Saturn Theory, but he seems to rely on conventional dating methods, which, I believe, are way wrong in most respects. Walter Brown's Hydroplate theory explains the dating problem rather well, I think, and he explains the formation of the Grand Canyon well and the demise of the mammoths somewhat well. But the hydroplate idea seems inferior to http://newgeology.us Shock Dynamics and Cardona's and Juenemann's Saturn Theory explanation of continental drift etc. Web has ideas on rock strata formation that may be better, but I haven't gotten his explanations in any detail yet. Saturn Theories Cook thinks Saturn was on a long elliptical orbit around the Sun and that it captured and released various planets at different times. He thinks Saturn captured Earth some tens of millennia ago, I think, before releasing it again just a few millennia ago. Cardona and Talbott seem to say that Earth was always a moon of Saturn outside the Solar System until just ten millennia or so ago, when it finally entered the heliosphere. Their theories have similarities. Cook has some good explanations of how Saturn captured and released planets and other aspects of electrical interactions.
'12-10-09, 05:23 Andrew	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism Thanks Lloyd, I find it fascinating to hear of Cook's Saturn scenario, based on various electrical attractions/repulsions and its long elliptical orbit. I think it's a healthy challenge to Cardona, Talbot et al, and worth considering. Cook certainly puts specific dates to various planetary phenomena. I haven't seen anyone else giving dates for Mars and Venus flybys, as well as distances from Earth. Is this guy channeling or what? Where is he getting all his information? Is anybody critiquing his work? I enjoy his full bore presentation and am looking forward to digging through his material.
'12-10-12, 22:25 JW Doogie	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism Lloyd wrote: Cook's Theory * I read part of Cook's website now at http://saturniancosmology.org/dryas.php and I think he makes a good case for much of his theory. I think he says Earth contacted Saturn's plasmasphere 13,000 years ago, which resulted in the shock and heat wave hitting North America, incinerating all plant and animal life there and causing over 1,000 years of global cooling. The shock wave is said to have pressed down the crust of the central continent, raising the Rocky Mountains, then rebounding to form a plateau near the Rockies to the east. Anode electric currents drilled the Great Lakes, forming pulverized rock etc in humid air and flung the wet sand in globs in various directions, forming the Carolina Bays, the Nebraska dunes, the Illinois and nearby "glacial till deposits" and similar material as far as Texas etc. * I'm more skeptical of a number of aspects of his theory, but his evidence in many cases seems to be very helpful. I don't know if he's studied the problems with conventional dating methods sufficiently. Walter Brown seems to have done a better job of that offhand. I doubt that the Rockies etc formed the way he thinks, but his idea is plausible. I need to study it more and compare with other theories to see which wins. I think http://newgeology.us has the best explanation of mountain building so far. Lloyd - just being a devils advocate here. I have not had a chance to much more than skim Cook's website, so I apologize if he has a better explanation than your summary characterization here. Specifically I take issue with a "shock wave" being able to press down the continental crust. I don't believe any shock wave of material (like hot gasses) markedly less dense than the crust would have pushed it down. The crust is several miles thick, and sits on top of the mantle, which is also markedly more dense than any highly accelerated hot gasses. For instance the famous Tunguska explosion, which happened relatively close to the Earth's surface and created a pretty good-sized shock wave, didn't push the Earth's crust down. Yes, it created a crater at the surface, but I haven't seen anyone report that it affected the Mantle miles below the crater. On the other hand, I wonder if a mammoth EMP-like "shock wave" wouldn't have had that effect? For example Walter Brown contends that rock in the mantle takes the form of super highly compressed elements (including H2O) being fused into a mineral-like lattice. Just like dropping a plastic bottle of pressurized carbonated soda and having the contents "explode" out of the bottle due to the sodium bicarbonate comes out of solution - Brown seems to posit that "some external force" (I think EMPs from external celestial neighbors like Saturn) similarly "shock" the mantle (water soaks up electrical energy better than rock) causing the H2O to come out of solution explosively. This causes the continental crust to initially be shoved upwards as the volume of the affected part of the Mantle expands and outwards. And it also accounts for the water and hydrocarbons under the continental crust (mostly around volcano sites), as well as a good portion of the oceans sitting on the earths surface today - because the H2O "came out of solution." IIRC it seems to me that Brown suggests there is the equivalent of 30 or more times the volume of all of the worlds oceans locked up in the Mantle today. I wonder if all the worlds hydrothermal vents and surface hot springs aren't residual "pressure bleed off" activity from the great event ("shock wave") that Walter Brown suggests was the principal cause of the global flood and formation of the earths continents?
'12-10-12, 23:46 Lloyd	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism * I agree that Cook's Saturn shock-wave is unlikely to have been powerful enough to push the crust down and make the Rockies and Appalachians pop up at the periphery, but I think it was hot enough to melt rock on the surface over a large area. And I think the Saturn discharges could easily have carved out the Great Lakes and scattered huge blobs of sand all over North America. I think another much greater discharge near East Africa could have broken up the supercontinent and raised the mountain chains in the process. * Cook's Great Lakes event combined with Cardona's polar column tornado are more likely explanations for the demise of megafauna, like mammoths too, than is Brown's supercritical water explosion of hydroplates, since the muck, loess and rock ice that buried and smothered the frozen mammoths is confined to the arctic region, whereas the hydroplate seams are at the ocean ridges. * Webolife thinks the supercontinent formed from upheaval of Earth's crust, which might include Brown's supercritical water pressure, but detritus from Saturn flares seems somewhat more plausible to me, at least until Web or anyone else explains how crustal upheaval can produce mud, sand and lime, the constituents of the sedimentary rock strata, i.e. shale, sandstone and limestone.
'12-10-16, 06:19 JW Doogie	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism Lloyd wrote: * . . . And I think the Saturn discharges could easily have carved out the Great Lakes and scattered huge blobs of sand all over North America. I think another much greater discharge near East Africa could have broken up the supercontinent and raised the mountain chains in the process. sounds interesting, can you direct me (and others) towards a thread that makes this case? Lloyd wrote: * . . . Cook's Great Lakes event combined with Cardona's polar column tornado are more likely explanations for the demise of megafauna, like mammoths too, than is Brown's supercritical water explosion of hydroplates, since the muck, loess and rock ice that buried and smothered the frozen mammoths is confined to the arctic region, whereas the hydroplate seams are at the ocean ridges. agreed - Brown has figured out a piece to the puzzle, but only a piece, not the whole enchilada Lloyd wrote: * Webolife thinks the supercontinent formed from upheaval of Earth's crust, which might include Brown's supercritical water pressure, but detritus from Saturn flares seems somewhat more plausible to me, at least until Web or anyone else explains how crustal upheaval can produce mud, sand and lime, the constituents of the sedimentary rock strata, i.e. shale, sandstone and limestone. I enjoy Webolife's contributions and perspective on all subjects geological. but in this particular case your assertion sounds intuitively more credible. is there a thread where you (or the two of you) have discussed this in more detail? I'd like to mention that I live near Seattle, and though not a professional who goes on geological "field trips," nevertheless I've endeavored over the last 30 years to personally see every geological attraction within 1,000 miles from here. Learning the "truth" about how this all came to be from this Electric Universe forum over the last five years has greatly enriched the experience. For example I visited Palouse Falls in SE Washington in August. From what I've read some people feel the only Falls in the world that is more spectacular from a geological perspective is Victoria Falls. I agree it is spectacular - more spectacular than Dry Falls north of there. While I stood there above Palouse Falls I tried to visualize God's "electric router" drilling out those gorges!
'12-10-16, 19:27 GaryN	Re: Pacific Northwest Catastrophism Palouse Falls is one of Mother Natures marvels, one of those formations that she teases us with. Here it is amazing to me that the big powerful glacier, or was it an upstream glacier dam burst flood, that must have cut that canyon out can apparently leave the delicate spires at the top in place. http://avintagerollingstone.blogspot.ca ... -link.html