orrery wrote: If they believe stars were not visible prior to 4500 years ago then they need to spend more time in their archaeology hats. Chinese records go back 6000 years and there are astronomical stonehenges being discovered that some believe are 70,000 years old.
Try again
The only problem with an active Galactic Nucleas proposal is that plasma phenomena on that scale last Millions if not Billions of years. There's no way that is was that active in the recent past (Last 50,000 years) and almost completely dead now. Not enough time has elapsed.
Lloyd
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
Gems from the Sky In one of his books, Dwardu said:
"... what can one make of the abundance of precious stones that litter the Arctic region? We have seen in our previous work that micro-diamonds, and perhaps even some which were more substantial, might have rained out of the sky.[1] But sapphires, emeralds, and rubies, too? Emeralds are found in the Yukon, sapphires on Baffin Island. "You want rubies?" asked Anne Casselman. "Go to Greenland."[2] And, no, I am not referring to gems that are mined out of the land. I am talking about stones that are sprinkled on the surface. "There are rubies on the surface everywhere," says Andrew Lee Smith, the head of True North Gems, Canada's leading gemstone exploration company. "I mean, you can't set foot anywhere without stepping on five or six rubies."[3] Did these rubies also fall out of the sky? The reader may laugh at such a suggestion—and do keep in mind that I am not really suggesting it. But remember, also, that there was a time when the belief in larger stones falling from the sky was also laughed at by astronomers." > [1] Flare Star, pp. 430 ff. > [2] A. Casselman, "The Rubies of Winter," Discover (December 2005), p. 10. > [3] Ibid.
* One TPOD regarding Vredefort Dome in South Africa said nanodiamonds were apparently formed by megalightning that formed that crater. Now, Dwardu shows that nanodiamonds and other gems appear also to have possibly rained down from the sky. Could proto-Saturn's flare have produced such gems which rained down along with other detritus? * This post on another thread at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4~ said:
For a long time there was much debate about whether the nano-diamonds were really in the Younger Dryas boundary layer. And then in the Journal of Glaciology, Andrei Kurbatov et al reported The discovery of a Nanodiamond rich layer in the Greenland Ice sheet . And that corresponds to the YDB. That settled that part of the debate. Extraterrestrial nanodiamonds do indeed exist in the YDB. And they are scattered all over the northern hemisphere, with the highest concentrations to be found so far in North America.
* The Younger Dryas is a recent event about 10,000 to 14,000 years ago, which Dwardu says was the time that proto-Saturn last flared catastrophically, as the Saturn System was entering the Solar System. * Here are other mentions of nanodiamonds on the Thunderbolts site: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&h ... 15&bih=427
Lloyd
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
Jupiter's Moon Is Squeezed Somewhat Like Earth Was Squeezed under Saturn * This is from Fred Jueneman. - In defense of the hypothesis, it has recently come to my attention that both Io and Europa undergo tidal distortions that render them periodically to become more prolate and then oblate, ostensibly due to the gravitational stresses experienced in the obliquity of their orbits about Jupiter. These effects are quite small but apparently measurable. And they do exist. Although mainstream science doesn't consider electromagnetic forces under these circumstances, it's my considered opinion that perhaps a combination of gravitic and EM forces are involved, especially since Jupiter exhibits such a massive magnetic field. - [Someone] asked how these forces were measured, and I responded: If these forces haven't been measured directly, then they have been inferred. http://www.planetaryexploration.net/jupiter/io/tidal_heatin~
"If Io were Jupiter's only moon, it would not be subject to internal stresses. But there are other moons nearby which exert a gravitational pull of their own. Io's volcanic activity is caused by the powerful force of Jupiter's gravity, coupled with the gravitational pull of Io's neighboring moons--Europa, Callisto, and Ganymede. Jupiter pulls Io inward toward itself, while the gravity of the outer moons pull it in the opposite direction. These opposing forces cause the distance between Io and Jupiter to vary, making Io's orbit slightly elliptical. As a result, Io is subjected to tremendous tidal forces that alternately squeeze and stretch its interior. This causes Io's surface to rise and fall by about 100 meters (300 ft). (The highest ocean tides on Earth only reach about 18 meters (60 ft)). This perpetual friction generates enormous amounts of heat and pressure within Io, causing molten material and gases to rise through fractures in the crust and to erupt onto the surface."
- What this additionally implies is that tidal forces also distort the body of a planetary body, which are manifest in lunar-effecting tides here on Earth, inclusive of air, sea, and land. In the case of Jupiter's satellites, the assumption is made that Jovian magnetic forces contribute significantly to this distortion [a Z-pinch?]. - What makes this doubly interesting, with respect to the heavy sulfur deposits on Io, is that Chester Carlson's original electrostatic development of what later became the Xerox copying process used sulfur. It was later found that selenium was more effective in the electrostatic transfer procedure. I'm not quite sure of the connection, but it makes one wonder about certain elements as sulfur involved in such an energy transfer process.
ddaveo
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
Hi Lloyd
In your 2nd post you described continental sliding, and it appears that you're saying the surface of the Earth has experienced some serious reshuffling in a short time frame. My question is, does that fit with the recent discovery of the "lost coastline" off the coast of Scotland? (see this article for a quick explanation, it was posted on the TB forums but I can't for the life of me find the thread)
This is a coastline that was discovered 2km beneath the ocean floor. To me, that would suggest the Earth has experienced a significant resurfacing event at some point in the past (ignoring the uniformitarian explanation of periodic upwellings) in which case we may need to take into account the possible formation and destruction of continents ... not just their rearrangement?
Re: Cardona's idea that Antarctica was the polar continent
I think Velikovsky mentioned in WiC that there's an Egyptian tomb mural that shows the night sky "upside down", and that some ancient stories say that the Earth has actually flipped over a few times in the past. There's more than one ancient tradition that says the sun and stars used to rise in the west and set in the east. Maybe Cardona's position is that the Earth was "upside down" during the Saturn period and the Antarctic pole was the one facing Saturn?
I'm just speculating ... an EU novice trying to shed light on the reasoning behind your different opinions.
I seem to recall an article stating that many rock-art depictions of plasma formations are found in places with a clear view of the southern sky, but I could be mistaken.
ElecGeekMom
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
OK. I get to wondering whether the term "magnetic reversal" means the earth stopped rotating for a while (3 days or so, right?) - or are we talking about it flipping over?
Either way, it would lead to the sun rising in the opposite direction from before the event. Also either way, apparently humans lived to tell about it.
If I had to guess, I'd say that a flip would be less destructive of all life than the reversal of rotation.
A little clarification, please?
seasmith
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
ElecGeek,
Quite a while back i had a thread on concept of ESG electro-static gyroscope; maybe on forum 1.0, as a quick search didn't find it. Anyway the idea is that by simple dielectric induction and repulsion, a system of nested paramagnetic (and/or magnetic) spheres will precess in the same manner as a compound mechanical gyro; ie: the motion being more pronounced with increasing external influence. You've probably tried to twist a spinning bicycle wheel or such, yes?
To your your comments, a sudden reversal of polarity/spin would not be necessary to affect the above storied events, just a passing EM field of some magnitude, and/or a perturbation of the ambient aetheral torque, imho.
No, I haven't tried to twist a spinning bicycle wheel. I did just find some information about that, though.
I will continue looking into the phenomena you mentioned.
Thanks!
Lloyd
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
ddaveo said on Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:21 am:
Hi Lloyd - In your 2nd post you described continental sliding, and it appears that you're saying the surface of the Earth has experienced some serious reshuffling in a short time frame. My question is, does that fit with the recent discovery of the "lost coastline" off the coast of Scotland? (see this article for a quick explanation, it was posted on the TB forums but I can't for the life of me find the thread) - This is a coastline that was discovered 2km beneath the ocean floor [You mean 2 km below the present sea level, I believe]. To me, that would suggest the Earth has experienced a significant resurfacing event at some point in the past (ignoring the uniformitarian explanation of periodic upwellings) in which case we may need to take into account the possible formation and destruction of continents ... not just their rearrangement?
* See if either of these threads are what you were reading: http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=5~ http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=1~ * In my early posts on this thread I was trying out a theory I came up with at that time. But after hearing from Fred Juenemann, I stated in later posts that his explanation seems to make the most sense, though Cardona's is similar. Fred thinks the electric and magnetic fields of proto-Saturn squeezed Earth into an egg shape. When the fields subsided, Earth relaxed into a spherical shape. Earth may have changed shape more than once, if the Saturn fields increased and decreased in strength more than once. The sea level changes likely occurred last at the time of the Saturn System's entry into the Solar System about 10,000 years ago. Cardona says there's evidence that glaciation occurred periodically, which lowered sea level a lot and, when Saturn flared, the glaciation melted, causing rising sea levels. And this occurred periodically too. The flares also added detritus to the Earth and Mars etc, which formed rock layers. But the breaking and moving of the continents was due mainly to the Earth reshaping from egg-shaped to spherical, I believe, while the flares also briefly stopped Earth's rotation, causing continents to slide.
You also said:
Re: Cardona's idea that Antarctica was the polar continent - I think Velikovsky mentioned in WiC that there's an Egyptian tomb mural that shows the night sky "upside down", and that some ancient stories say that the Earth has actually flipped over a few times in the past. There's more than one ancient tradition that says the sun and stars used to rise in the west and set in the east. Maybe Cardona's position is that the Earth was "upside down" during the Saturn period and the Antarctic pole was the one facing Saturn? - I'm just speculating ... an EU novice trying to shed light on the reasoning behind your different opinions. - I seem to recall an article stating that many rock-art depictions of plasma formations are found in places with a clear view of the southern sky, but I could be mistaken.
* I don't remember Cardona's current thinking about Earth flipping over. He stated in an article in Kronos magazine in the 1980s that Earth seemed to have turned over, making Jupiter then appear at the north pole in place of Saturn, but he has changed his ideas quite a bit since then. But I believe he and other TB team members now think that Saturn was seen at the north pole up to the time the Saturn System broke up about 4,500 years ago. Then Saturn drifted down toward the south pole before it left the vicinity of the Earth (and appeared to shrink down to the pinpoint that it is now).
ElecGeekMom said on Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:16 pm:
OK. I get to wondering whether the term "magnetic reversal" means the earth stopped rotating for a while (3 days or so, right?) - or are we talking about it flipping over? - Either way, it would lead to the sun rising in the opposite direction from before the event. Also either way, apparently humans lived to tell about it. - If I had to guess, I'd say that a flip would be less destructive of all life than the reversal of rotation. - A little clarification, please?
* I don't think I've ever heard any catastrophist scholar suppose that the Earth actually began rotating in the reverse direction. I believe only a full or partial polar axis shift is all that has ever been suggested, since a reversal of direction would seem to be highly improbable (though maybe not impossible, since electric and magnetic fields might be able to accomplish that. Isn't that what electric motors can do?).
Spawn of Saturn
Purple Haze
From what I understand according to certain elements of the EU model of planetary history, the Earth was enveloped in the plasma sheath of Saturn up until relatively recently in human history (i.e. within 15,000 BP).
This sheath would have created a purple like atmosphere which obscured the stars from the sky and has the effect of a uniform distribution of low light coming from the polar 'Sun' with no transition between seasons.
I am really fascinated with all aspects of the EU model but the question which came to mind after hearing the above was why do humans have such poor night vision? Surely having spent the majority of their 'evolution' in the relative dark humans would have an eye much more suited to functioning in low light conditions? If I am correct the EU model proposes a sudden shift from low purple hued light conditions to the bright 'white' light from the new central star of the solar system.
This sudden shift in light conditions would create problems for vision adapted for nocturnal like conditions.
I heard an interview with Troy McLachlan a while back in which he proposed evidence for the 'purple haze' as he called it was indeed the high number of nocturnal animals we have here on Earth.
Anyone have any opinions?
Funnily enough I also had questions about this idea because I had always been under the impression that chlorophyll was a major factor in transforming the atmosphere to make it more habitable for humans and other oxygen respiring animals. Being a green pigment inherent in all photosynthesizing organisms it absorbs all other wavelengths of light except green which is reflected. This is why plants and algae etc are green. Chlorophyll actually absorbs most of of its energy from blue and red wavelengths of light.
I wanted to find out the earliest occurrences of chlorophyll in the fossil record so searched for that on Google...this is what came up first in the search list:
This sheath would have created a purple like atmosphere which obscured the stars from the sky and has the effect of a uniform distribution of low light coming from the polar 'Sun' with no transition between seasons. Spawn Well what about the Southern Hemisphere. If the Northern Hemisphere pointed at Saturn for a long period then we would expect conditions in the Southern Hemisphere to be quite different. Actually what we find is that things grew well in the Arctic and the Antarctic, and dismissing movement of continents as fantasy, we wonder how light could be good right around the globe.
...why do humans have such poor night vision? Spawn So - did humans come from some other planet. And did the nocturnal animals live in different light conditions in the past, presumably here on Earth.
chlorophyll The retinal question the article raises certainly makes one think. We actually do not know how long ago retinal may have been the main light-sensitive molecule. And regardless of the light, retinal might have been the first light-sensitive molecule. Perhaps retinal and chlorophyll coexisted in the past, and conditions changed and this helped chlorophyll, but it is well worth considering regardless. Mo
orrery
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
Orthogonal wrote:
orrery wrote: If they believe stars were not visible prior to 4500 years ago then they need to spend more time in their archaeology hats. Chinese records go back 6000 years and there are astronomical stonehenges being discovered that some believe are 70,000 years old.
Try again
The only problem with an active Galactic Nucleas proposal is that plasma phenomena on that scale last Millions if not Billions of years. There's no way that is was that active in the recent past (Last 50,000 years) and almost completely dead now. Not enough time has elapsed.
I'm not so sure. It seems there could be "sparks" that fly out in the system. Imagine the Core having matter fall into it. The duration would depend on the item falling into it. The Milky Way is gobbling up a small galaxy. I imagine that as matter falls into the core you could get short or long bursts depending on might be going in.
Things like this would indicate to me that the AGN effect could have short-term bursts.
* Note: I do not promote the idea of the Milky Way having a blackhole at its center as it is obviously a Ball Lightning Plasmoid in a Plasma Crystal formation.
seasmith
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
Our sun is more massive than most other stars. "The sun itself could have captured another planet," says Perets, who puts the odds of such a capture at a few percent. Any captured world must revolve so far beyond Pluto that its gravity does not perturb the known planets.
Most of the captured planets end up hundreds or thousands of times farther from their stars than Earth is from the sun. Furthermore, most captured planets have orbits tilted to those of native-born planets, and half the captured planets revolve around their stars backward.
Lloyd
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
Eyesight Adaptation from Age of Saturn * Spawn thinks humans could not have adapted so quickly to a change in the light spectrum. A similar question was asked on the Cardona Interview thread at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1~. Here's the question, followed by Cardona's answer. QUESTION: The human eye [is very highly tuned] to peak solar radiance at earth's surface in the visible spectrum. Chlorophyll is also equally tuned to the Sun's EM spectrum. Had we been originally in Saturn's environment this would not be possible since human eyes (cones/rods) would be adapted to a completely different spectrum under Saturn. - If we were around another star [instead of the Sun], the visible spectrum would be something else entirely. Under the Saturnian system, it would have likely been pushed toward infrared. Is it your position that entering the Solar system induced rapid evolution to achieve the response [in eyes & plants that] we currently see? I'll have to see if there is any data on this. I don't know if any ancient human genomes have been analyzed for something like this. CARDONA: I do not believe that a different spectrum would have necessitated a major physical change in human eyes. But, yes, there would have to have been some adaptations and this, in fact, is taken up in detail in Volume Four of my slowly progressing series. * Cardona's first 3 books are listed here: http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/resources/, but I think his 4th book is available my now too. I can ask him, if you like. Capture of Saturn?
SS quote: Our sun is more massive than most other stars. "The sun itself could have captured another planet," says Perets, who puts the odds of such a capture at a few percent. Any captured world must revolve so far beyond Pluto that its gravity does not perturb the known planets.
* That seems to be based on the gravity-only model of orbits, whereas I believe the EM-gravity model would allow perturbed orbits to be normalized within a few centuries or so. * This paper http://web.archive.org/web/20070108051810/http:/staff.on.br~ says:
"We have demonstrated that a distant planetary-mass solar companion (i.e., a planet orbiting within the inner Oort cloud) would be capable of raising the perihelia of scattered disk objects and placing them on orbits similar to those of Sedna and 2000 CR105. The perihelia of the SDO's are raised by the Kozai mechanism, so the orbit of such a hypothetical companion would in principle need to be substantially inclined to that of the orbit of the scattered disk object that was produced by perturbations of the known planets in order for the type of perturbations that we are discussing to operate efficiently. "Note, however, that a very eccentric Earth-mass companion with small perihelion (60 AU in the example that we studied) and low inclination could also produce low inclination Sedna-like orbits. The required minimum companion mass would be only about Neptune's mass if it orbited with semi-minor axis at 2000 AU, but would need to be a Jupiter mass at 5000 AU and 8 Jupiter masses at 10,000 AU."
* I think one or more of Cardona's books discusses the perturbed orbits of Sedna and others, which he considers to be evidence of Saturn passing through the area about 10,000 years ago, I think. It took Saturn about 5,000 years to get from the heliopause to the asteroid belt. * The author of Dark Star says at http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/heliopause.html:
- There are some remarkable changes to the magnetic field as the Solar Wind collides with vast expanses of interstellar gases. So what kind of effects might be observed if something more substantial were to come into contact with the Heliopause from beyond the Heliosheath? - The first hints about the power of these effects came from a remarkable image taken by the he Hubble Space Telescope back in February 1995, shown [here]. http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/heliopause4.jpg There is a visible bow shock about half a light-year across which is created as the wind from the star L.L. Orionis collides with the Orion Nebula flow. - Now, I have written on many occasions about the elongated path of the Dark Star, a theoretical sub-brown dwarf which approaches the planetary solar system during its perihelion passage. - This entity is more massive than Jupiter, and has a strong magnetic field of its own, surpassing that of the Jovian gas giant. In my forthcoming book, I discuss various scenarios about how this celestial entity might become visible from Earth, despite maintaining a vast distance from us. One of those possibilities is that the Dark Star encounters the regions of space that Voyager 1 is now passing through. Voyager 1 is detecting great magnetic upheaval here. - It seems reasonable to propose that the addition of a sub-brown dwarf into such an area, complete with its own massive magnetic field, would create vastly more complex effects. I'm not sure whether those effects would be strong enough to create an area of luminosity in the magnetic field, like a mind-numbingly colossal aurora effect. I'm not sure whether the Dark Star itself would be affected by the Heliopause area enough to become super-charged, causing it to emit flares of light.
moses
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
It is interesting to note that the Sun's heliosphere double layer is at around 100 AU. Whereas the planet in question is 330 AU from their star. Thus the capture could be solely gravitational. However electrical capture would probably be much more likely. That's because of the big electrical potential drop across the double layer which would produce a big effect on the free-floating planet, but also because the Birkeland currents that feed both the star and the planet can interact and the force in this interaction can be transferred to both the star and the planet. Mo
Lloyd
Re: Earth Was a Moon of Saturn
* I'm reposting the last part of my previous post, so I can add some modifications, which I didn't have time to finish there.
- There is a visible bow shock about half a light-year across which is created as the wind from the star L.L. Orionis collides with the Orion Nebula flow. - Now, I have written on many occasions about the elongated path of the Dark Star, a theoretical sub-brown dwarf which approaches the planetary solar system during its perihelion passage. - This entity is more massive than Jupiter [Saturn may have been Jupiter-size at the time it was there], and has a strong magnetic field of its own, surpassing that of the Jovian gas giant. In my forthcoming book, I discuss various scenarios about how this celestial entity might become visible from Earth, despite maintaining a vast distance from us. One of those possibilities is that the Dark Star encounters the regions of space that Voyager 1 is now passing through. Voyager 1 is detecting great magnetic upheaval here. - It seems reasonable to propose that the addition of a sub-brown dwarf into such an area, complete with its own massive magnetic field, would create vastly more complex effects. I'm not sure whether those effects would be strong enough to create an area of luminosity in the magnetic field, like a mind-numbingly colossal aurora effect. I'm not sure whether the Dark Star itself would be affected by the Heliopause area enough to become super-charged, causing it to emit flares of light.
* Yes, exactly as Saturn did 10,000 years ago. * Mo, according to Mathis, Newton's Law of Gravity already contains EM force, as well as gravity, so everything gravity does involves EM forces as well. That seems likely to me.
