* I thought it might be worthwhile to discuss vertical and horizontal electrical effects to see if we can learn anything new in the process. Geysers, dust devils, tornadoes, aurorae, stalactites, kimberlite pipes, salt domes, volcanic vents etc are vertical phenomena. Sedimentary rock layers, caves, rilles, canyons, veins etc are horizontal phenomena. Do each kind of vertical phenomena occur in similar ways? Likewise re horizontal? Is it true that electric and magnetic fields occur at right angles to each other? Do branches of lightning shoot off at 90 degree angles, the same way that lightning-carved canyon branches occur at 90 degree angles to the main channels? If so, is it due to the electric and magnetic fields being at right angles? * At Mummified Dinosaurs / electric fossilization...? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123&p=20835&hilit=stalactit~ I posted images of stalactites in France that have horizontal branches * I also said: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123&p=20894&hilit=kimberlit~
* I was searching the forum for kimberlite, since diamonds are found there [in kimberlite pipes] and my recent post here mentions how silicon can transmute into diamond. * Wikipedia says: "Kimberlite occurs in the Earth's crust in vertical structures known as kimberlite pipes. Kimberlite pipes are the most important source of mined diamonds today." * In the thread, Intriguing discussion on the role of planetary mechanics, at http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/v ... ite#p17180 Steve Smith said: - I would say that Kimberlite pipes, plutons, and salt domes are areas where smaller discharges drew ionized underground material together (magma could be considered solid plasma since it carries a charge), pulling it upward. When the discharge passed, the structures re-solidified. Obviously, halite [sodium chloride; salt] is another charged substance.
[Re magnetic fields] Is Mars electrically "damaged," ... such that it no longer functions correctly electrically? Or is something else going on? ~Michael Gmirkin
with type-II superconductors one would not expect an 'induced' ordered magnetic field but a "mixed state" wherein some areas exhibit 'induced' or diamganetically 'expelled' magnetic fields and other areas would have lower to nonexistant magetic fields. Of course there would then be abrupt and/or subtle transitions from one area to the other "...on Mars the direction of the magnetic field changes dramatically from place to place."
Dust Devils: Note that "... magnetic field penetrates into these materials as quantized vortex filaments." The analgolous "penetration depth" at planetary scales would make this a crustal phenomena. -Dust devils would be analgoulous to "quantized vortex filaments". Now an interesting thing to consider with this comparrison is that in order for surperconductivity to remain the vortices *cannot* move. In order to acheive consistent superconductivity "defects" must be added to the superconducting material to "pin" the vortices. Dust devils on Mars appear to occur on flat plains i.e. no "pinning" sites: Adding defects can "pin" the vortex in place and restore zero resistance Compared with: Dust Devils at Gusev, Sol 525 It would make for an interesting comparison of areas prone to dust devil activity and the local magnetic field strength of those same regions to contrast with that crustal magnetism map. Tornado alley type relationships come to mind.
As far as the Martian south pole and it's magnetism is concerned I suspect that it's electric functionality is no different than that of the south pole of Enceladus. However, because of the dry ice cap, iron rich soil, thin CO2 atmosphere etc the Martian south polar "plume"-like activity simply has a different characteristic of expression at it's electric navel. - I would also venture in relation to the Martian south polar supposed "geyser" activity that some of the "holes" produced in the dry ice cap are the result of "pinned vortices" i.e. the penetration of magnetic field lines which would then result in the production of diamagnetic "expulsion" or 'induction' of the magnetic field in that area. Again, like Enceladus the polar regions are the touchdown points for the planetary electrical umbilical cord. As a result there will probably always be greater stability and pronouncement of electrical influences in polar regions.
Could electric discharge be excavating the spots on the ice? Discharge frequently occurs in discrete columns, as in the discharge experiment photograph on the left. (Many variations on the basic pattern could be given).
The lining up of discharge columns is commonly seen in the Earths auroras (north polar aurora below left, and Aurora Australis below right). Of course the electrical cause of auroral activity underscores the logical priority on the study of spotting concentrated in the polar regions on Mars. Of the known physical events whose effects on surface materials can be studied, is there anything other than electric discharge that can account for the details observed on the Martian surface? In the case of Earth's aurora, the atmosphere serves to insulate the surface substantially from the discharge activity of the aurora. But this is certainly not the case with the planet Mars, whose rarified, but electrified atmosphere would be more accurately called a plasma. Moreover, as we've noted in discussing global dust storms on Mars, the planet's elliptical orbit means that it travels much farther through the radial electric field of the Sun, adding greatly to the potential for electrical activity on the planet.
Until the cause of the dark spots on the ice is explained, it is not rational to separate this issue from equally enigmatic dark spots observed elsewhere on the planet's surface--as on the "sand dunes" of Russell Crater observed in our latest Pictures of the Day. Surely, in a search for answers, one cannot justify ignoring similar unexplained patterns just because of a dubious theoretical assumption ("no electricity in space").
Our experiments on the formation of strata are fundamental because they demonstrate, 'inter alia', that in a continuous turbulent current many superposed strata form simultaneously and progress together in the direction of the current; they do not form successively as believed originally. These experiments explain a mechanism of strata building, showing empirically the rapid formation of strata.
The important advances in sequence stratigraphy that have been taking place during the period of our research harmonise with our experiments. For instance, systems tracts composed of several strata are considered isochronous [strata formed at the same time] by sequential stratigraphy; a fact that we have demonstrated in the laboratory. Recent paleohydraulic analyses undertaken by our colleagues in Russia confirm the limited time required for rock formations to deposit (Lalomov, Lithological and Mineral Resources, 2007).
We believe the foregoing shows the need for a fundamental revision of geological chronology integrating the new data and based upon observation checked by experiment. Guy Berthault.
* Has this finding been discussed on the forum anywhere previously? If so, at least I don't think this source has been referenced. This experiment is yet more evidence that rock strata could easily have been laid down in short time periods. First, I thought the unconformities, disconformities etc would still be places where strata on opposite sides could likely have been formed at different times. But the first video on the site shows that even those strata can be formed at the same time. * Instead of strata being formed successively from bottom to top, this shows that they were more likely formed at about the same time, but in succession away from the direction of overall flow, assuming the medium was water or perhaps wind.
Grey Cloud
Re: Rock Strata Formation
Nice one Lloyd. That was very enjoyable and oh the implications.... If you find more videos let us know.
webolife
Re: Rock Strata Formation
Yes, I've seen the entire Guy Berthault video twice since several years ago. It confirmed what I've pondered dozens of times as I watch my little novelty framed sand scape. The sand flows heterogeneously in a stream from top to bottom but laminates as it hits the resistant bottom of the water filled frame. Berthault's experiments show that the depth of the water column and speed of the current are the determiners of the formation depth. Given this result, one can imagine what amount of water was flooding over the Grand Canyon [basin, before it was uplifted as a plateau], to produce the formations we see there. Also demonstrated in the Berthault video is the sorting of the layers by sediment particle size, a feature well known from Grand Canyon studies. It would appear that two or three major somewhat successive sediment laden currents deposited the Grand Canyon layers. I disagree with starbiter's claim that the waterborne sediments interlayer with "duned" layers.
It would appear that two or three major somewhat successive sediment laden currents deposited the Grand Canyon layers.
Bursting ice dams?
nick c
Re: Rock Strata Formation
Nice find Lloyd. The videos are excellent. It seems to be basically a uniformitarian approach that disputes traditional uniformitarian conclusions, if that makes any sense? Of course the x factor is still the effects of massive plasma discharges.
Nick
Grey Cloud
Re: Rock Strata Formation
nick c wrote: Nice find Lloyd. The videos are excellent. It seems to be basically a uniformitarian approach that disputes traditional uniformitarian conclusions, if that makes any sense? Of course the x factor is still the effects of massive plasma discharges.
Nick
Hi Nick, You've lost me. How or why are plasma discharges required?
webolife
Re: Rock Strata Formation
GC, you were asking about ice dams bursting... no that was the likely mechanism behind the Bretz/Spokane/Missoula floods in the Pac. Northwest, but I am thinking more along the lines of extreme tidal or tsunami-type flooding.
Starbiter, sorting by particle size is a depositional feature of water current borne material... the crossbedding you would expect from duning or beachforming, as we see commonly for example in other areas of Utah to the north, are a characteristic of the GC sandstones. I'm not entirely against your view here. This is not the same as your claim that basalt beds are the result of duning, which I wholy discard. The order of the shales, sandstones, and limestones are however characteristic of particle size sorting, leading to a scenario in which the GC sequences may have been laid in a relatively short time by a global event.
Lloyd
Re: Rock Strata Formation
* Here's an image from the second video: * The authors refer to layers as slanted on slopes, while the horizontal rows are called banks, which we normally call strata, I think. So the big green arrow is pointing to the first slanted layer, which is what is deposited first. Each successive layer to the right is deposited in succession, as the different sized grains settle to different levels. The orange and yellow levels may be small grains and the middle blue level are likely large grains. The dots above the yellow level are the grains flowing in turbulent water and settling in the farthest layer to the right. Further on in this or the other video they show different animals at different levels on the original [black or dark grey] slope, which become fossilized at different levels, but all at the same time. So the levels or banks or strata are not of different ages. * Here's an image from the end of the video of Mt. St. Helen deposits that were also stratified all at once in the same way as above, apparently:
Grey Cloud
Re: Rock Strata Formation
Hi Webolife,
GC, you were asking about ice dams bursting... no that was the likely mechanism behind the Bretz/Spokane/Missoula floods in the Pac. Northwest, but I am thinking more along the lines of extreme tidal or tsunami-type flooding.
I was thinking of tsunami-type floods from ice dam bursts but the orientation of the canyon is more E-W than N-S (yes?). Are you referring to oceanic tsunamis? If so, how far inland is the Canyon and does the geology between the canyon and ocean support this?
Grey Cloud
Re: Rock Strata Formation
Hi Lloyd
The authors refer to layers as slanted on slopes, while the horizontal rows are called banks, which we normally call strata, I think.
That's how I understood it except that banks were made up of strata.
nick c
Re: Rock Strata Formation
hi GC,
You've lost me. How or why are plasma discharges required?
The Sedimentology site only considers water and wind, and certainly the effects of wind and water are important, and their demonstrations are excellent. However, deposition by electrical processes needs to be taken into consideration, at least when examining the overall picture of the geological column. I believe that electrical processes are capable of achieving many of the sorting and layering effects we see in strata. And of course, enormous discharges would be accompanied by flood and wind, etc.
As in:
Plasma is electromagnetically active, and the forces can exceed the strength of mechanical forces such as gravity by trillions of orders of magnitude. Plasma processes can provide practically unlimited vigor. Strata can be deposited in days or hours instead of centuries or millennia—and the layers need not be horizontal. Craters and canyons can be excavated in similarly short periods, and the debris can be lifted into space or pulverized, sorted, and deposited elsewhere.
Craters and canyons can be excavated in similarly short periods, and the debris can be lifted into space or pulverized, sorted, and deposited elsewhere.
OK so I'll buy the excavation due to the energy involved. But: What evidence do we have that debris can be lifted into space; that it can be pulverised, as opposed to vapourised; that it can be sorted; or, that it can be deposited elsewhere. In the context of sedimentary rock this would involve depositing it in layers, in discrete areas, as opposed to scattering it across the landscape.
The guys who made the video have empirical evidence from lab experiments, sea-floor core samples and from the eruption of Mt St Helens. Their theory even accounts for the fossilised trees which straddle the banks and more or less complete fossilised animal skeletons.
webolife
Re: Rock Strata Formation
GC, I was referring to regular oceanic [likely seismically induced] tsunamis. Your ice dam reference would be more like a surge. Remember that in my scenario, before the uplift of the plateaus and mountainous continental boundaries [eg the Rockies and Sierras], the topography of the continent was relatively flat, and the Grand Canyon region was a basin. The continental drift evidence has the N.Amer continent moving toward the Pacific Ocean from the Atlantic, so a tremendous volume of water is available from both directions for flooding the inland, prior to the uplift of the plateau. This inland flooding is commonly referred to as "shallow seas" in the standard model. The heat and pressure due to uplift are sufficient to explain the compaction and cementation of the strata, or what Berthault referred to as banks. Of course the present mountainous topography would not allow for such an event to [re]occur. I agree with your questions about the EDM mechanism.
