* It's not apparently relevant to this thread, unless bacteria can produce petroleum from material in the deep Earth, or shallow Earth for that matter.
kiwi
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
Lloyd wrote: * It's not apparently relevant to this thread, unless bacteria can produce petroleum from material in the deep Earth, or shallow Earth for that matter.
I have read where they utilize microbes that eat petroleum waste ...... I wonder what form that is expelled in ... gas maybe? .. and whether that process may be reversed by different bacterial/microbial critters
Various bacterial species, both Gram-negative and Gram-positive, were found to produce the volatile hydrocarbon isoprene (2-methyl-1,3-butadiene). Out of the tested cultures, Bacillus produced the most isoprene. The production of isoprene from bacteria was confirmed by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry. Media and growth effects on isoprene production were investigated: growth in rich media led to higher levels of isoprene than growth in minimal media, and highest isoprene emission rates were seen in log-phase cultures. Temperature profiles for bacterial isoprene production showed an optimum of 45°C and were suggestive of an enzymatic mechanism for isoprene formation. http://www.springerlink.com/content/k71107mq8622g533/
Isoprene is produced and emitted by many species of trees into the atmosphere (major producers are oak trees). The yearly production of isoprene emissions by vegetation is around 600 Tg, with half that coming from tropical broadleaf trees and the remainder coming from shrubs.[3] After release, isoprene is converted by free radicals (like the hydroxyl (OH) radical) and to a lesser extent by ozone [4] into various species, such as aldehydes, hydroperoxides, organic nitrates and epoxides, which mix into water droplets and help create aerosols and haze
Isoprene was first isolated by thermal decomposition of natural rubber.[8] It is most readily available industrially as a byproduct of the thermal cracking of naphtha or oil, as a side product in the production of ethylene. About 20,000 tonnes are produced annually.[2] About 95% of isoprene production is used to produce cis-1,4-polyisoprene—a synthetic version of natural rubber. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoprene
Naphtha (pronounced /ˈnæfθə/ or /ˈnæpθə/) normally refers to a number of different flammable liquid mixtures of hydrocarbons, i.e. a distillation product from petroleum or coal tar boiling in a certain range and containing certain hydrocarbons. It is a broad term covering the lightest and most volatile fraction of the liquid hydrocarbons in petroleum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha
Anaconda
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
webolife wrote: Bacterial action in the production of hydrocarbons is relevant. My quick google of the concept brought almost 2 million strikes. Here's a recent article for starters: http://ecology.com/ecology-today/2010/06/21/bacterial-enzym~
webolife, your example is not applicable for several reasons.
From the article webolife linked:
Harry Beller, an environmental microbiologist who directs the Biofuels Pathways department for JBEI's Fuels Synthesis Division, led a study in which a three-gene cluster from the bacterium Micrococcus luteus was introduced into the bacterium Escherichia coli.
First, this specific example is not a naturally occurring bacteria, but instead is a genetically modified organism (GMO). So, offering this bacteria as relevant to naturally occuring petroleum systems is wrong.
Second, upon reading the link, one finds that the "hydrocarbon" discussed in the link is not produced in naturally occurring petroleum systems:
The enzymes produced by this trio of genes enabled the E. coli to synthesize from glucose long-chain alkene hydrocarbons.
Alkene hydrocarbons have a specific molecular structure:
In organic chemistry, an alkene, olefin, or olefine is an unsaturated chemical compound containing at least one carbon-to-carbon double bond. The simplest acyclic alkenes, with only one double bond and no other functional groups, form an homologous series of hydrocarbons with the general formula CnH2n.
Alkenes can be manufactured by fractional "cracking" of nautrually occuring hydrocarbons, true enough, but are not, themselves, found in natural petroleum.
There are two principle types of hydrocarbons found occurring in natural petroleum systems: Alkanes and Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons.
Per Wikipedia:
Alkanes (also known as paraffins or saturated hydrocarbons) are chemical compounds that consist only of the elements carbon (C) and hydrogen (H) (i.e., hydrocarbons), wherein these atoms are linked together exclusively by single bonds (i.e., they are saturated compounds). Alkanes belong to a homologous series of organic compounds in which the members differ by a constant relative molecular mass of 14.
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), also known as poly-aromatic hydrocarbons or polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons are potent atmospheric pollutants that consist of fused aromatic rings and do not contain heteroatoms or carry substituents.
This distinction in hydrocarbon structure is significant because there are claims of bacteria deep in the geologic column producing or contributing to the formation of naturally occurring hydrocarbons systems (Thomas Gold). But beyond the evidence that Gold plagiarized the Russian work on Abiotic oil, inserting his own spin on deep bateria, there is the fact that no naturally occurring bacteria have been found which produce Alkanes or aromatic hydrocarbons.
** note, methane is the one Alkane that can be produced by organic detritus breaking down near the surface and also methane can be produced by live organisms (the "bean eater" effect).
kiwi:
The same thing goes for Isoprene, it is not found in natural petroleum, but rather is a product of fractional "cracking" in oil refineries, where the molecular structure is rearranged by the "cracking" process, in other words, Isoprene is the result of industrial refinement as opposed to natural occurrence.
When one researches this issue it is important to identify the specific structure of the hydrocarbon. My bet is that you won't find naturally occurring bacteria that produce Alkanes or aromatic hydrocarbons.
This discussion dovetails nicely with a previous one with Lloyd: Specific types of bituminous coal, beyond having percentages of aromaic hydrocarbons, also most bituminous coals have some percentage of Alkane hydrocarbons.
Cannel coal has paraffin (a type of Alkane hydrocarbon) in it:
Per Wikipedia:
Cannel coal consists of micrinites, macerals of the exinite group, and certain inorganic materials. Cannel coal usually occurs at the top or bottom of other coals.
There are other examples of coals with a percentage of Alkanes.
Per J.F. Kenney, near surface heat & pressure does not have the energy to cause low chemical energy potential organic detritus to reform into high chemical energy potential hydrocarbons:
The Constraints of the Laws of Thermodynamics upon the Evolution of Hydrocarbons: The Prohibition of Hydrocarbon Genesis at Low Pressures, J.F. Kenney, et al.
This first article dealing with the general subject of the modern Russian-Ukrainian theory of abyssal, abiotic petroleum origins does not itself involve specifically that body of knowledge. This article discusses the reasons which led physicists, chemists, thermodynamicists, and chemical, mechanical, and petroleum engineers to reject, already by the last quarter of the nineteenth century, the hypothesis that highly-reduced hydrocarbon molecules of high chemical potentials might somehow evolve spontaneously from highly-oxidized biological molecules of low chemical potentials, and reviews briefly the fundamental scientific reasons for the failure of the 18th-century hypothesis1 of a biological origin of petroleum.
A fundamental attribute of modern Russian petroleum science is that it conforms to the general, fundamental laws of physics and chemistry. Although such constraint may seem an obvious requisite for any scientific assertion, the 18th-century hypothesis that petroleum might somehow evolve spontaneously from biological detritus in the near-surface depths of the Earth stands, contrarily, in glaring violation of the most fundamental, and irrevocable, laws of nature: the second law of thermodynamics.
It also must be remembered that 99% of organic detritus breaks down relatively quckly upon expiring.
From the sources, bituminous coal has percentages of both aromatic and Alkane hydrocarbons, plus heavy metals, all of which is inconsistent with near surface, low heat & pressure formation.
starbiter
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
Anaconda said,
"From the sources, bituminous coal has percentages of both aromatic and Alkane hydrocarbons, plus heavy metals, all of which is inconsistent with near surface, low heat & pressure formation."
Me, Your above statement is correct on a mainstream forum. Not in an Electric Universe.
michael
kiwi
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
The Constraints of the Laws of Thermodynamics upon the Evolution of Hydrocarbons: The Prohibition of Hydrocarbon Genesis at Low Pressures, J.F. Kenney, et al.
at a desperate last grasp can I invoke a "specialised" type of Maxwells Demon and his draughting gate?
Lloyd
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
Anaconda said [and Mike commented on the same quote]: From the sources, bituminous coal has percentages of both aromatic and Alkane hydrocarbons, plus heavy metals, all of which is inconsistent with near surface, low heat & pressure formation.
* What about the high heat and pressure conditions produced in electrical Z-pinches and the evidence that diamonds, heavy metals etc are also produced by them? It appears to me that such conditions could be produced near surface, as well as at depth.
Lloyd
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
ORIGIN OF BITUMEN
From Wikipedia: Geologic origin Naturally occurring deposits of bitumen are formed from the remains of ancient, microscopic algae and other once-living things. When these organisms died, their remains were deposited in the mud on the bottom of the ocean or lake where they lived. Under the heat and pressure of burial deep in the earth, the remains were transformed into materials such as bitumen, kerogen, or petroleum. Deposits at the La Brea Tar Pits are an example. As bitumens are also found in meteorites and Archean rocks it is possible that some bitumens are primordial material formed during accretion of the Earth and reworked by bacteria that consume hydrocarbons.
* I wonder what the theory is in detail of how algae etc decomposed and formed bitumen. And I wonder if algae has been found in bitumen. Other fossils have been. http://thestonescryout.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Gen~ The Valley of Siddim Tarpits
Genesis 14:10 Now the Valley of Siddim was full of bitumen pits, and as the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some fell into them, and the rest fled to the hill country. [This was in the time of Abraham, about 4,300 y.a., just a few hundred years after the Great Flood and the Saturn System breakup. - LK] ... There are 305 naturally occurring bitumen deposits around the world at the surface with an estimated 5.5 billion barrels of in-place reserves according to the USGS [That's equivalent to 135.5 sq miles ten feet deep]. The largest deposit of naturally occurring asphalt is located in Pitch Lake in southwestern Trinidad. ... The La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles, California are actually asphalt lakes. They are famous for their preservation of Ice Age fossils such as mastodons. Tar and pitch can be used somewhat interchangeably although pitch is more solid and tar is more liquid in nature. Both of these can form from plant material or petroleum. Pitch that is derived from plant material is called resin, while pitch associated with petroleum is called bitumen. ... Most of the occurrences of these tar pits in the geologic record preserve the community of their inhabitants intact. We never find sharks and dinosaurs with these communities, or any other counter-intuitive mixture of fossils, as the Global Flood model would seem to suggest [Webolife has suggested elsewhere, though, that the tar pits do show evidence of a flood. ... Since there was plenty of "pitch" in Noah's day before the Flood, and similar products at Babel and in Abraham's day, [at least some petroleum was not created during the Great Flood.]
Lloyd
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
PETROLEUM BIOMARKERS * Plant and animal oils/fats found in petroleum are said to be part of the source of petroleum and many of these oils/fats are considered to be derived from specific kinds of plants or animals. Bacterial biomarkers seem to be the most common. I don't know if this means petroleum comes from life forms, or if it generally accompanies life forms. http://www.chem.agilent.com/Library/applications/5990-4754E~
Petroleum biomarkers are complex molecular fossils derived from once living organisms [1]. These compounds provide unique clues to the identity of source rocks from which petroleum samples are derived. This information includes the biological source organisms which generated the organic matter, the environmental conditions that prevailed in the water column and sediment at the time, the thermal history of both the rock and the oil, and the degree of microbial biodegradation.
The distribution of "molecular fossils" (biomarkers) of steroid compounds in extracts from some specific geologic age in the Tarim Basin have been analyzed and are used as the fingerprints for the oil-source rock correlation. ... Terpanes come mainly from prokaryote (e.g. bacteria)[1]. Almost all oils contain terparnes because bacteria exist widely in the sediments. The oils generated from different source rocks deposited under similar conditions often have the analogues terpanes fingerprints[2]. So far, among so many terpenoids compounds discovered, ... only few can act as molecular fossils for taxon-specific source indicators. [Exceptions are tree terpanes, i.e.: some compounds with specific structures in terpanes, such as oleanane (angiosperms-specific marker), biaddinanes (angiosperm dammar resins-specific marker) and tetracyclic diterpanes (coniferophyte-specific marker).] ... Steranes, derived from hydrocarbon sterols, are indeed of a very ancient lineage. They are sedimentary markers for eukayotes, including plants, algae and animals. Sterols appear to be the chemical gatekeepers for higher life forms.
webolife
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
It seems there are a range of possible biotic connections to crustal hydrocarbons:
1. Biotics have nothing to do with oil and bitumens, including coal. 2. Biotics have nothing to do with oil and bitumens, including coal, but are simply found fossilized by, in or near these substances. 3. Biotics are involved in coal formation, but have nothing to do with oil. 4. Associated biotics have been altered by abiotic hydrocarbons in such a way as to muddy to issue of which originated which? 5. Biotics have played a part in altering the form and chemistry of abiotically occuring hydrocarbons. 6. Biotics are the raw materials of oil and bitumen production, but primordial abiotic factors [eg. methane] help precipitate or catalyze the transformation of carbohydrates to hydrocarbons. 7. Oil and bitumens/coal are the product of biotic activity upon abiotic raw materials. 8. Oil and coal, etc, are entirely the fossilized remains of organisms or detritus from organisms.
I may have missed a nuance here or there, but it seems important at this point in the discussion to review the range of views being set forth. It is not a black or white biotic vs abiotic debate. It is one of the most informative threads I've been involved in here at Thunderbolts, at least I'm learning a lot of new things.
Lloyd
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
* I've been reviewing this thread and hope to have more to say before long. I find that some of the issues I brought up have been discussed earlier. So maybe we need a summary.
Lloyd
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
QUESTIONS FOR ANACONDA * Here are some questions that I think are most important for this thread. I provided an answer to the first question that I got from one of the websites you recommended. See after the questions. 1. What were the chemical pathways for formation of petroleum and coal? 2. At what depths were they formed? 3. From what rock types did they form? 4. What role did electrical forces play? 5. Was the 7 to 30 km deep Moho layer involved? 6. How do biomarkers form in petroleum? 7. When were most petroleum and coal formed? ANSWERS? 1. What were the chemical pathways for formation of petroleum and coal? * This is half of an answer, since it may not answer the coal formation question. From one of the articles you referenced on the web, I got the following, which I paraphrased. Iron oxide, FeO, calcium carbonate marble, CaCO3, and water, H2O: exposed to under 10,000 atmospheres produced methane, CH4; exposed to 50,000 atmospheres and 1,500°C produced: methane, ethane, n-propane, 2-methylpropane, 2,2-dimethylpropane, n-butane, 2-methylbutane, n-pentane, 2-methylpentane, n-hexane, and n-alkanes through C10H22, ethene, n-propene, n-butene, and n-pentene in distributions characteristic of natural petroleum. The hydrocarbons become relatively stable above 900°C, suggesting thermodynamic equilibrium for the H–C system. The hydrocarbons did not decompose with increasing temperature in the high-pressure environment, equivalent to 40,000 foot depth[?]. * So FeO + CaCO3 + H2O >> CxHy + FeO + CaO + O2 * Is that about right? * I don't think it's likely that there is enough H2O at great depths to provide the needed H, but H2O wouldn't be needed if electrical transmutation is involved, since H is a common transmutation product. * If O2 is a product of the chemical reaction, some of it would likely transmute to S = Sulfur. * There may not be enough CaCO3 at great depths either, but silicon or magnesium could transmute to carbon. * Do you have a list of element abundances for great depths? Such a list would likely be largely guesswork anyway, I think, because the Kola borehole is the deepest that has ever been drilled and that was only 7 miles deep. It didn't reach near the Moho layer. * I think to penetrate deeper than the Kola hole, there will need to be new technology, maybe some kind of craft, instead of a pipe. It might require high powered electrical discharges to cool it enough to survive.
Lloyd
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
SUMMARY FIRST 4 PAGES (of this thread, paraphrased and "quoting" Anaconda)
- Abiotic Oil theory: http://www.gasresources.net - Maximum quantity of crude oil that could be produced by all biological matter would be a thin 2.5 mm film covering the Earth; the quantity abiologically would be a 10 km thick layer - Scientists have found that ethane and heavier hydrocarbons can be synthesized under the pressure-temperature conditions of the upper mantle - For the origin of hydrocarbons and petroleum see: http://www.pnas.org/content/99/17/10976.full - Wells drilled 7 kilometers beneath Louisiana encountered temperatures of 485 degrees F - Oil bearing geological formations are below a salt barrier up to several thousand kilometers thick and 15,000 feet below the sea floor * You should have said the salt barrier is about 2 km thick. - This salt barrier is not the product of evaporation in shallow seas, but supercritical water processes where salt precipitates out of the water because of the intense pressure at such depths
- nick c: Re Velikovsky, oil can be formed abiotically here or out there, and during catastrophes it can be deposited
- The addition of pressure to temperature at depth causes metal to lose it tensile strength - Oil companies have abandoned the "oil window": http://www.marinetalk.com/articles-marine-companies/art/Enh~ - Transocean is building a drillship for drilling wells up to 40,000 feet deep - http://www.hgs.org/en/art/?34: Earth is encircled by subtle necklaces of interconnecting, generally latitude-parallel faults and electrical dynamics pushes minerals and oil up through these cracks - The author described "corkscrew" or "spiral" formations of minerals
- solrey: A large number of mineral/metal deposits are distributed in "fingers" or "veins" in a Lichtenburg pattern
- Pillow lava (lava deposited underwater) has been found to contain solid bitumen, heavy hydrocarbon - Fullerenes are carbon that form electrically - They are among fulgurites, formed when lightning hits the ground - Hydrocarbons and fullerenes have been found in meteorites and together in pillow lava - Stanley Keith said "giant porphyry metal and petroleum accumulations seem to occur in or near deep-seated cracks within 45 degrees of the equator." - There is no scientifically verified process for low chemical energy potential molecules (biological detritus) to convert to high chemical energy potential molecules (oil), and the second law of thermodynamics prevents such process from taking place in the low pressure and temperature shallow crust
* What about potassium nitrate made from calcium nitrate by bacteria?
- No quantified chemical process has been identified that produces "fossil" derived petroleum - http://www.gasresources.net/disposalbioclaims.htm: There are claims that certain molecules in natural petroleum are biological molecules, called biomarkers - There have never been observed any specifically biological molecules in natural petroleum, except as contaminants - Claims about biomarkers have been thoroughly discredited by observations of those molecules in the interiors of meteorites etc - The same applies to porphyrin and isoprenoids
* I'm not convinced that biomarkers aren't usually produced biologically from different species.
- Only after coming into contact with Plasma Cosmology did seemingly enigmatic anomalies begin to make sense - Now it seems that Electro-thermo-molecular bonding produces hydrocarbons - http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-04ze.html: Diamondoids are found in crude oil at great depths - Deposits rich in natural gas seem to be the best sources for diamondoids - Meteorites with hydrocarbons may also have diamondoids - Oil deposits create magnetic signatures, apparently electrically - Hydrocarbons can be "rapidly and profusely" created via electrical energy - Production may be so intense as to cause hydrocarbons to even spill out over the land mass - There is also slower but steady production in calmer periods - Canadian tar sands may be an example of a profuse and rapid creation of hydrocarbons - http://thomasbrown.org/EndofFossilFuels/End_Fossil_Fuels.ht~
- mharratsc: There is enough temperature and pressure in a z-pinch to create geodes with quartz crystals inside ... And geodes with petroleum inside have been found too ... Maybe Earth IS a giant geode, and it's filled with OIL
- Oil is being discovered up and down the West African coast parallel to the finds off the coast of Brazil - Kudryavtsev's Rule is that when oil is found in a gelogical strata, more oil will be found in deeper formations - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Kudryavtsev - Scientists Create First Three-dimensional Global Map Of Electrical Conductivity In Earth's Mantle: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090819153342.h~ - Transocean drilled a well to 35,050 feet - Fossils have only been found as deep as 18,000 feet
* That's assuming that biomarkers are not from fossils
* TB EU theory says the ocean basins were carved out electrically, not by continental drift, or Earth expansion; I say there was a supercontinent that broke apart from an electrical impact. * If Earth expanded after the crust formed, the crust should have broken up into millions of small pieces with about equal expanses of water between them, instead of 6 big continental pieces and a few hundred small island pieces with varying distances between them. Expansion would involve vertical motion of material to the bottom of the crust, then omnidirectional horizontal forces, like a fountain. The water at the top of a fountain goes horizontally in all directions. The fountain-like horizontal forces under the crust should have pulled the crust apart everywhere, instead of just at what are now mid-oceans. A steel cable hanging horizontally 20 miles would break under its own weight. Rock is much weaker than steel and would break apart more easily under the horizontal pulling forces. * To clarify better, imagine 4 giants holding up a continent and growing at the same time. As they grow their hands get farther apart and the crust between each 2 hands will be pulled apart.
- In the Cretaceous Period 120 million y.a., the inland sea was 2,700 feet deep
* Do you mean 2,700 feet above present sea level? EU theory says the dating methods are all wrong; the entire surface of the Earth and most planets was reformed about 5,000 y.a. and most rock strata were laid down then; there were no oceans, just shallow seas.
mharratsc
Re: Hydrocarbons in the Deep Earth?
I'd like to rewrite my assessment! I still think the Earth is probably a geode, but lets change that internal composition guess from 'oil' to 'water'...
To the surprise of the researchers, they did not find the expected transition from granite to basalt at 3-6 kilometers beneath the surface. Data had long shown that seismic waves travel significantly faster below that depth, and geologists had believed that this was due to a "basement" of basalt. Instead, the difference was discovered to be a change in the rock brought on by intense heat and pressure, or metamorphic rock. Even more surprisingly, this deep rock was found to be saturated in water which filled the cracks. Because free water should not be found at those depths, scientists theorize that the water is comprised of hydrogen and oxygen atoms which were squeezed out of the surrounding rocks due to the incredible pressure. The water was then prevented from rising to the surface because of the layer of impermeable rocks above it.
Another unexpected find was a menagerie of microscopic fossils as deep as 6.7 kilometers below the surface. Twenty-four distinct species of plankton microfossils were found, and they were discovered to have carbon and nitrogen coverings rather than the typical limestone or silica. Despite the harsh environment of heat and pressure, the microscopic remains were remarkably intact.
Microfossils at 6.7 kilometers... do you think the Earth could support chemosynthetic life in an aqueous core?
But here's my heavy-duty,way-out-in-left-field idea:
Would it be possible to have a biological trigger for oil production from subterranean marine life?
Has anyone else ever suggested that concept before..?
Back on a serious note- I would have to say that my idea of an 'oil-filled geode Earth' has been proven false by the results of the core sampling done by the Kota Deep-bore experiment (which I've just learned about). I still believe that petroleum must be created abiotically just due to the amazing quantities that have been found so far, but I doubt seriously that the Earths core could be petroleum if there is no evidence of it floating up above the water that they've discovered 3+ miles deep in the mantle. Hydrogen gas and water, yes... evidence of petroleum, no. :
