seasmith, I'd like it if they could give us an accurate map of where those x-ray sources fit on our galactic map,especially in comparison to star forming regions. Their article leaves me skeptical,however. They've brought all their bad theories (black holes,redshift=velocity,galactic density waves,temperature-luminosity relationship,stellar ages)together in one article. Basically, what I get out of it is this: They "know" how the galaxy rotates in millions of years. They "know" how old these HMXBs are,and where they think they formed. So they should be able to trace everything back in time, and find those HMXBs back in the star forming regions. Sure enough, everything matches. There is one more little detail. They just had to allow for the HMXBs each getting an extra velocity kick in an unknown direction, and of an unknown magnitude. But that magnitude is "not too high"
seasmith
Re: star formation at z-pinch
celeste, Thanks. It was those several bald assumptions upon which they hung the article, that confounded me as well. Interesting that they seemed to find one (HMXB) region, for each galaxy arm though.
celeste
Re: star formation at z-pinch
seasmith wrote: celeste, Thanks. It was those several bald assumptions upon which they hung the article, that confounded me as well. Interesting that they seemed to find one (HMXB) region, for each galaxy arm though.
And for sure in/near the galactic plane. I won't be discarding that article. Seems like something still hidden there.
celeste
Re: star formation at z-pinch
celeste wrote:
Frederic Jueneman wrote: Shouldn't we be also looking at the Bennett theta-pinch for star formation? There are several forms of the Bennett pinch, of which the z-pinch is the electromagnetic mirror image of the theta-pinch. There seems to be some confusion about this, and it would be of benefit if someone more knowledgeable could ferret out the details.
We've seen these pictures of figures that look like plasma discharges: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TITjUD1d-_E/U ... terman.jpg Star formation at theta pinch would be in the plasma torus (in the sweat under the arms of our stick man). Star formation at z-pinch, would be along the current axis (between the legs of our stick man). So where does star formation occur? According to this story: http://www.viking-mythology.com/theCreation.html , it is both. Pardon this little digression into mythology, but we will see that the order of events in this story is compelling, once we understand the EU picture they are describing. First let's translate the first few paragraphs of the story. We have this gap (Ginnungagap), across which we begin to have arcing (sparks into Ginnungagap). A full blown plasma discharge forms (humanoid creature). We have theta pinch production first (sweat under his arms grew into two giants). Next, we have z-pinch production of one more giant (a son produced from the legs coming together). The point clear is that the z-pinch star comes after the formation of the theta pinch pair (it is their son). In the next post, I'll show why this must be so.
Pardon me for reposting, but I want to keep a little continuity for just a minute here. If we are to believe this depiction, we see that we have formation of bodies "under the arms" first, then, we have formation "between the legs". In the actual plasma discharge, this means we have formation of bodies in the toroidal current first, then on the main axial current. I'll ask you just to keep that in mind, when we get back to discussions on how we get star formation in a pinch. Now, back to the science. There is this idea out there, that we get neutral matter "funneled" into a pinch. Odd,considering that we know a current filament leading into a pinch tends to rid itself of neutrals. In the threads on Marklund convection, we see that while electrons and ions tend to drift inwards, towards an axial current,the effect on neutrals is to drift outwards from the filament. As we start to constrict the filament, we should even more ejection of neutrals. Yet formation of stars is by constricting of neutrals by filaments? So where does all that neutral matter come from? From combining electrons (flowing one direction down a filament),with ions (coming in from the other direction)? O.K.,back to the mythology again. We see that "stick man" figure, that we think is a plasma discharge. If true, we know the main current, driving the whole formation, is the current "along the body",or "between the legs". The toroidal current "under the arms",is the driven current, which is actually powered by the current "along the body". Interesting here is that if you neutralize material on the main current, you decrease the forces for a pinch in the toroidal current. If you neutralize the material in the toroidal current, you increase the forces for a pinch on the main current. I'll take a break for a bit,and let anyone out there rip me apart here. You won't believe where I'm going, but let me show you some coincidences. 1. The stick man figure is constricted at the waist. Our local bubble is constricted at the galactic plane, and opens above or below. 2.The stick man figure requires a strong current down the central axis. Our local bubble has a stream of stars,crossing the galactic plane, (including the Pleides),that supposedly has "blown" out the local bubble. 3. The stick man figure requires a toroidal current around it's waist. The sun is in a "filamentary" cloud of gas at the edge of the local bubble. Earth itself appears to precess about an axis ~180 degrees from the Pleiades.
I've got a clear picture here. Taurus sounds like torus. OMG, he was right after all.
seasmith
Re: star formation at z-pinch
" I've got a clear picture here. Taurus sounds like torus. OMG, he was right after all. –celeste
Who was ? I think I've been through all the thread links, and haven't found the reference.
Re your Jueneman quote, although not "more knowledgeable", i've the impression that 'z-pinch' begets theta-pinch, which begets z-pinch et cetera; much as electric inductance creates magnetic (inductance), which spawns electric inductance, etcet.
As applied to the "stick man", a galaxiy-central filament may be considered as z-axis, and galactic arms as theta-pinches (inducing local z-pinches); which still supports your interpretation imho, in that armpits came before leg dongles, in the mythical image. After all it's the Milky Way that is visible on Earth, not the galactic center.
One other trivial observation- when visualizing Birkland and Marklund EM/ES forces, the johnson & johnson chapter that was referenced above may oversimplify the cumulative I x B force.
To truly integrate the motions, instead of just combining vectors, perhaps the analogy of a constricting vortex/whirlpool would be more useful? [and it still has the + and - counter-flows] tambien imho…
celeste
Re: star formation at z-pinch
Seasmith, I can't believe I did'nt put this together before. Let's start with what the mainstream knows: The Pleides are part of a stream of stars coming down through the galactic plane. This stream has supposedly blown out the local bubble by an occasional supernova. What they do see is a tube surrounding this stream, that has been cleared of most of it's neutral gas and dust (hence the name "bubble"). They also found that the bubble opens to the top (up out of the galactic plane), and below. Finally, they think the sun lies at the edge of this bubble, in a cloud of gas that they say is "filamentary". Let's add what we know: A stream of stars represents current flow. That current should tend to rid itself of neutral gas and dust. What I did not put together, was that if the local bubble widens both above and below us, that puts us near the pinch in that hourglass shaped filament. Specifically, right where we should have that torus around the filament. So now ,if you remember the work of Walter Cruttenden,who showed multiple lines of evidence that our whole solar system (not just Earth),is precessing. Then James Weninger's posts that showed both our axis of precession (90 degrees from the Pleiades) and our local motion, were consistent with us being in a toroidal orbit around the Pleiades. That idea prompted purely by following the mythology, Taurus sounds like torus,Alcyone means the central one,Electra...etc. Well the toroidal motion was right, but that was only half the picture. We are in the torus surrounding the pinch in the Pleiades filament. We are in the "arm sweat", while the Pleiades stream forms the "body" of that humanoid plasma discharge shape. If all that seems a bit speculative, you can at least verify that we are near the narrowest part of the local chimney (that was what some decided to call the local bubble when they found out it opened on each side of the galaxy), and that the bubble is nearly free of neutral gas and dust. We even appear to see a dense wall of gas/dust expanding from the filament. This will be important evidence against neutral matter spiraling inwards to form stars at the pinch (it doesn't happen).
Native
Re: star formation at z-pinch
@celeste, You referred to the http://www.viking-mythology.com/theCreation.html regarding creation, which of course is just 1 of the many cultural Stories of Creation, and I totally agree with you in taking these telling as cosmological knowledge wrapped in natural and mythological symbols.
Since some 35 years ago I began to compare these Stories of Creation to modern science, and I have to say that the ancient knowledge and understanding is more superior on many occasions compared to modern science. Read more on my Mytho-Cosmological site http://www.native-science.net/index.html where I try to explain the primeval symbols of creation in connection to the Milky Way.
In Egyptian mythology the eight primordial deities (= forces of creation), were arranged in four female-male pairs: Naunet and Nu, Amaunet and Amun, Kauket and Kuk, Hauhet and Huh. The females were associated with snakes and the males were associated with frogs. Apart from their gender, there was little to distinguish the female goddess from the male god in a pair; indeed, the names of the females are merely the female forms of the male name and vice versa. Essentially, each pair represents the female and male aspect of one of four concepts, namely the primordial waters (Naunet and Nu), air or invisibility (Amunet and Amun), darkness (Kauket and Kuk), and eternity or infinite space (Hauhet and Huh). Together the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning, they are what always was. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced, resulting in the arising of a new entity. When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things.
AD: Here we have 4 (8) primeval and basical elements and their complementary qualities "that creates everything". The "unbalancing" of these forces creates Ra, a fiery shining light in the middle, which is NOT the "Sun" but the luminous centre of our galaxy which contains the electromagnetic central Z-Pinch knot that creates everything in our galactic circuit. (This Z-Pinch effect of course can be found in all kind of electromagnetic creation, large or small)
Native, I know there are those out there who are reluctant to believe any stories of ancient,lost, knowledge. They think all advances in scientific knowledge are progressive, and linear. To them, I would merely point out this paradox: We are all familiar with a time in our recent history, where we had a great scientific/religious battle over whether it was the sun or the earth that was the center about which we traveled. The great advance was supposedly the realization that it was the sun,and not Earth, that was the center of the solar system. Yet, we have discovered even more ancient stories of a central sun, about which OUR SUN , traveled. So to get from a point where we even considered some distant star as our center , to a point where we argued over which solar system body is the center of our world, already represents a major backwards step in thinking at some time in the distant past.
Native
Re: star formation at z-pinch
@celeste, I totally agree with you on the validity of ancient knowledge. you wrote:
Yet, we have discovered even more ancient stories of a central sun, about which OUR SUN, traveled.
Indeed so, and this "Central Sun" is symbolized as Ra positioned in the galactic centre in the Egyptian mythology and not as our Sun as many scholars claims because they have forgotten which mythological telling of creation belongs to which celestial object/phenomenon.
That is: Ra mythological represents in my opinion the luminous light that is produced via the Z-Pinch effect in the middle of our galaxy. And when so, our solar system was once created in the middle of our galaxy and has travelled out in the galactic surroundings, a movement that logically confirms that "the galactic rotation anomaly" really describes a circuit of electromagnetic formation in the galaxy.
When so, there is no need for a "black hole" or a "heavy black object" in the centre of our galaxy because it all flows in a circuit of formation, and then one cannot describe the full galactic mass to any specific location, right?
NB: Do you have some favorite mythological sites to recommend and one site of your own maybe?
Cheers Native
nick c
Re: star formation at z-pinch
A reminder to all, this a thread on the Electric Universe board, while a tangental reference to mythology is permissable as it may pertain to a topic, an extensive discussion of myth would be a derailment of the thread. These discussions can take on life of their own. I would like to keep this thread on the Electric Universe board. We should keep the focus on the thread title, "star formation at z-pinch."
@Native, Feel to free to expound upon your hypothesis on the NIAMI board, but this thread is not the place.
Native
Re: star formation at z-pinch
@nick c, It is not "my hypothesis" I´m describing above. This is ancient knowledge from the Stories of Creation and I just thought it would be interesting in this topic to be confirmed by ancient myths that clearly tell of "star formation from a central galactic light that create stars and everything in our galaxy".
But OK - I´ll take your point.
celeste
Re: star formation at z-pinch
nick c wrote: A reminder to all, this a thread on the Electric Universe board, while a tangental reference to mythology is permissable as it may pertain to a topic, an extensive discussion of myth would be a derailment of the thread. These discussions can take on life of their own. I would like to keep this thread on the Electric Universe board. We should keep the focus on the thread title, "star formation at z-pinch."
@Native, Feel to free to expound upon your hypothesis on the NIAMI board, but this thread is not the place.
Nick, Yes, I did the damage at this point: "O.K.,back to the mythology again." And, I was actually hoping to get feedback on the paragraph preceding that: "There is this idea out there, that we get neutral matter "funneled" into a pinch. Odd,considering that we know a current filament leading into a pinch tends to rid itself of neutrals. In the threads on Marklund convection, we see that while electrons and ions tend to drift inwards, towards an axial current,the effect on neutrals is to drift outwards from the filament. As we start to constrict the filament, we should see even more ejection of neutrals. Yet formation of stars is by constricting of neutrals by filaments?" I was hoping for either,"You are right,filaments do tend to eject neutral matter, and that effect increases near a pinch.", or "Filaments do eject neutrals, but another effect dominates near pinch". My follow up question to the second response would be "what is the threshold ",and "is there at that point enough neutral matter left in the filament to impact star formation, or is neutral matter being continuously formed from the plasma?" I have a problem understanding how entrainment would work. I do realize near a pinch, there is a huge density of plasma to do the entraining, but it seems drift/ejection velocities for neutrals are also increased. I'm not attached to any particular answer here, and won't be surprised if I'm making some gross error. Any guidance here would be helpful.
celeste
Re: star formation at z-pinch
Nick, I do have another question for you. Given that in the galactic plane, there is a greater density of not only neutral matter, but "ionized gasses" , than above or below the plane. And given that we see a stream of many stars traveling through the galactic plane (the Pleiades stream). And finally, given that stars are, in fact, charged. Then, what should be the effect on the plasma in the galactic plane when that stream of charged stars passes through it? Is a plasma torus, centered on the point where the stream passes through the galactic ( in Taurus), just wild speculation? Or is it a logical conclusion?
nick c
Re: star formation at z-pinch
Celeste, Well I would not call your speculations "wild." This is the kind of discussion we want on the EU board, we are all learning as we go along. (My caution was intended to prevent the thread from turning into a discussion of myth, the direction in which it was definetly going. While such a topic is fine on the forum, it is not appropriate for this board, which is expected to deal with the plasma cosmology side of the Electric Universe.) I am not sure what you mean by the 'Pleiades stream,' are you referring to the stars contained within the open cluster (M45) or something more? I would expect that the stars within the Pleiades will spread out shotgun style as the cluster breaks up over time. I would also be interested in noting if any stars that enter into a different or changing plasma environment have any corresponding (major or subtle) change in their position on H-R diagram. But then that is probably wild speculation on my part!
celeste
Re: star formation at z-pinch
Nick, I'm talking about the whole Pleiades moving group mentioned here: http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/chimney.htm Notice the Pleiades group is in the "tubular cavity ", of hot and sparse,ionized gasses (plasma),and the "tube"is surrounded by a wall of dense neutral gas. That is a current filament, and they see evidence of those "tubes" in other galaxies too. It's important to note in that first picture that the "chimney" cuts through the galactic plane at an angle.
