4Real, Think about some basic facts of C-14: 1. It is created high above the troposphere in conditions highly dependent upon solar flux. 2. It is found in a ratio of about 1 part to 1 million of C-12 in living organisms. 3. After 5 half-lives, or about 30,000 alleged years, there is too little C-14 in any sample to reliably count. 4. There is no way whatsoever to correlate radiocarbon to "known" times before about 5000 BP; only by assumption of perpetuous equilibrium conditions can C-14 be called upon for dates before that time. 5. If, as I mentioned earlier, there was a time before the recent earth-changing catastrophe when the transport of C-14 from the upper atmosphere to the biosphere was blocked by [greenhouse] atmospheric conditions, as is suggested by all fossil data, then any materials from around, during or before that atmospheric structure-changing catastrophe would contain only minute amounts if any of C-14, causing all such materials to be dated with an incorrectly "old" age.
601L1n9FR09
Re: C14 dating.
Hi Webo, If I might add, if the same folks insisting on the reliability of C14 are to be believed there was once a firm belief in the "reducing atmosphere" and is currently a consensus that CO² has fluctuated enough to drive warming and cooling of the same atmosphere. In addition to cosmic radiation (from my view pretty much ions at varying rates of speed) the sea levels and sea temperatures impact profoundly on the amount of CO² in the atmosphere. To believe this had or has no effect on the ratio of C14 is at best an assumption, and likely an erroneous one. There are too many assumptions. To accept any of them as fact is bad enough but to accept all of them is a colossal leap of faith. I suppose I could go on typing but I think I am already overboard.
Peace
jone dae
Re: C14 dating.
(removing duplicate post....)
jone dae
Re: C14 dating.
I noticed that this forum isn't as active as some of the others are. This is surprising, since much of what Old School or Traditional science says, and the public says after them, like parrots, is based on the time-scales, on the dates, that they assign to objects or events, from the micro to the macro, and on to the galactic. Therefore, the unreliability and inherent limitations of radiocarbon dating, or radiochronology as it is sometimes called, are critically important. Every scientist should be concerned about them. So, here is some more of the work that the late Alfred De Grazia, Prof. Emeritus from Univ. of Chicago, did that discusses this subject: (Please note that all the small flaws in the text positions or alignments are in the original. I might prepare a corrected copy as time allows.) 1 Figure (Table) 6 DISPUTED EXPLANATIONS OF THE TESTS OF TIME __________________________________________________________________________________________ Test Idea of the Test Evolutionary Quantavolutionary (mostly of absolute time) Explanation Explanation I. Earth Surface Features 1. Gross forms and Estimate of age, based on Convection-currents from All forms can be quickly Relations theory and presupposi- hot mantle, snow and created under high-energy tions, of lakes, cratering, rain, and erosion define conditions. diastrophism, continental features over long times. displacement, etc. 2. Rock (or fossils) Judgements of freshness, Appearances are deceptive; The "eye," feeling, and taste appearance looseness, etc. gradual erosion and can distinguish age often cementation 3. Superposition of strata Over-layers younger than Accepted and basic Accepted and basic under-layers, barring intrusions, displacement 2 4. Sedimentation of Rate of deposit, based on Generally, present rates are Revolutions have generally materials observation and / or sup- typical of past rates intruded with exponential positions of past rates rates 5. Erosion of materials Rate of deposit, based on Generally, present rates are Revolutions have generally observation and/or sup- typical of past rates intruded with exponential positions of past rates rates 6. Salt deposits Same as I-1 plus I-4 Gradual evaporation of Dumping of hot waters or stranded salt waters sudden burial 7. Metal deposits Same as I.1 Old magmatic extrusions Catastrophic column fallout or from below cosmic dumping. 8. Caves, stalagmites Present rate of growth, re- Water filtration through Thermal and electrical hitrocalculated limestone, etc., long-term energy digging and carving 9. Metamorphic Rock Past heat and pressure rate; Gradual heating and non- Quasi-explosive and/or electrical terminated + I.1-2 castrophic forming trical heating 10. Magnetism of Rocks Magnetometer registers last Infrequent reversals now be- Successive reversals amid melt (a) Magnetic N ori- lieved in with great effects moving surfaces shortens entation and (b) intensity time 11. Fluid pressures (gas, oil, Pressure, quantity, rate, exit Entombed fluids finally Continued pressure means water) time = retrocalculation break through late entrapment 3 12. Conglomeration Same as I.1-4-5 Waters and air aggregate Great forces from long distdifferent material ances agglomerate material II. Biological Indicator 1. Birth and Extinction of Elapsed time for species to Occurs slowly by II.5-6-7 Occurs by radiation and cataspecies develop, ramify, and be- and individually with slow strophe. "Missing links" come extinct ecological change every where 2. Fossil (includes bones, See I.3 Orderly succession of Orderly short-time specie sucpollen, etc.) species from primitive to cession; sometimes devolusuperposition modern tion, cross-zoning and confused identification of assemblages 3. Fossil zoning Ecological life niches oc- Ladder of long-time succes- Disastrous cross-currents transcupied and abandoned, sion of life niches port and superimpose difchanged and overlaid ferent fossil beds. Vs. I-3 4. Fossil succession Superposed beds carry Evolution promotes young, Many exceptions, assumptions, younger, more developed developed fossils to higher anomalies, mixtures species rocks 5. Adaptation time Time elapsed for accommo- New species take long Prompt adaptation occurs with dating to new surround- breeding for their heavy mutation; many vaings various life niches cated niches 4 6. Selection time Time estimates for prolifera- Requires long time Rapid diffusion common tion of species vs. competition 7. Mutation time Time between successful With enough time, enough Radiation and ecological dismutations plus prolifera- successful mutation for asters bunch changes; young tion for species develop- evolutionary branching species abruptly succeeded. ment "Missing links" rare 8. Tree-ring (dendro- Seasons mark solar years on Uniformity of recent past Major gaps and variations in chronology) logs back 5,000 years if evident, earth motions rings; possible substitute matched constant cause of rings 9. Fossil appearance Youth and age of outcrop Experts cannot tell age by Experts can see that deposits or exposed fossils and visual examination believed old are really young bones expertly guessed 10. Coral reefs Measure growth; relate to Coral columns of 105 years Coral rate varies with mineyears by present rate found. Also many fossil rals, heat. Can grow in corals before shallows of rising waters. 11. Character of Variety, numbers, ambiance, Views assemblages as acci- Views for cause, dimenslons assemblages and cause of death dents or repeated incidents of catastrophe, extinction 5 12. Fossil fuel formations Time required to form coal Organic sediments, long- Bull-dozing, deep burial of (coal, oil) and oil term, special conditions heated biosphere and some cosmic oil fallout III. Chemo-physical Measures 1. Radiocarbon(14C) Decay of 14C to 14N in Accepted and basic, with Atmospheric and decay indead organisum occasional minor devia- constancy invalidates preproportionate to time of tions 2,500 B.P. death to 50,000 years 2. 40Potassim - 40Argon Decay of 40K to 40A in ig- Can approximate rock age Migration, new infusions of ratio neous rock proportionate back to pre-Cambrian 40A invalidate; anomalies to last melt, 105 - 109 years 3. Uranium238 - Lead206 Decay of 40K to 206Pb in Same as III-2 Migration and decay inconratio minerals (non-sedimentary) stancy of U-Lead chain inmeasured from original validates crystallization of rock 4. Thorium232 - Lead208 Decay of 232Th to 208Pb in Same as III-2 Same as III-3 ratio same 6 5. Rubidium87-Strontium87 Decay of 87Rb to 87Sr in Same as III-2 Migration of Rb invalidates ratio minerals with 87Sr mea- completely sured from original rock 6. Thermo-Luminescence Loss of luminescence of A promising method not Promising, little applied, still rocks and ceramics since yet applied and reliable in realm of nuclear uncerlast heating beyond 580ºC tainties 7. Uranium fission tracks Etchings of charged particle A promising supplement to Subject to radionic disasters dating collision with micas are III-3 and cosmic-ray erasures counted and related to decay rate 8. Oceanic uranium Elaspsed time for uranium Unmeasurable or incompre- Short time (104) to reach preabundance dating to reach present level hensible sent levels of accumulation given known input and output 9. Radiocarbon non- Rate used for dating implies Anomalous or unverifiable Atmosphere transformed imequilibrium method of decline of 14C to zero in plying castasrophes dating atmosphere 13,000 years 7 10. Temperature gradients Loss of heat is function of Inner dynamics of bodies Declining heat is function of of planet known conditions, known unknown; radio-activity; elapsed time and recent cataevent, hence tells elapsed earth fractures are hot strophes; heat is escaping at time plate boundaries fracture boundaries 11. Soils chemical analysis Micro-constituents of sedi- Normal fires, air, water de- Volume, mix, context permit ments (soil, ash, clay, etc.) posits produce exterme revolutionary period indexshow events. constituents ing and portray IV. Astronomical Motions 1. Planetary and Satellite Regular measureable orbits Accepted; universal laws re- Orbits are empirical; change- Orbits permit retrocalculations of troactive to solar system able by high energy disancient events genesis placements 2. Rotation of bodies Regular rotation re- Accepted; calcuable to ori- Origin of rotation from older liable retrocaluclations ginal emplacement of motions; all motions changebody; known regular and able redically, cf. Venus minute changes 3. Elecrical fields Periods of heavy Earth dis- Speculations; Earth is low- A developing analysis of (charging) charges exist and correlate charged and always has several period by evidence to human behavior been of cosmic discharges 8 4. Solar emission Solar winds and radiance Minor durations have occur- Major and minor; patterned inconstancy rates can be retro-corre- red but generally constant electrical behavior occurred lated with major events behavior 5. Resonances Planets Venus and Mercury The events are assignable The resonances corresponded achieve periodical posi- but of unknown timing to legendary large-body entions indicating some counters special event. 6. Librations; oscillations Gravitation explains and Accepted; all irregularities Fossil motion detectable; of satellites permits retro-calculation explainable by gravitation Moon recently emplaced of Moon's increasing and motion laws distance and Earth's slower rotation 7. Gravitational constancy All retrocalculations practi- Laws are absolute and must The constancy is experienced, cally are measured with be consistent with specula- not absolute; may be in an laws of gravitation tion "unknown" multi-force field 8. Age of universe Retrocalculated in billions Speed of light basic; no Irreleva to most problems of years by "big bang" short-time teory concei- and highly speculative and starting assumption vable adaptible 9. Meteorite ages Correspond through chemo- Meteorites are solar system Meteori recently exploded physical measures with and resemble primal Earth and acquire false ages like age of Earth material III 9 10. Solar cycles Periodicities of sun-spots re- Periodicities vary but pro- Periodicities are reasonable if flected in natural periods bably not much experienced, but radical on Earth departures probably over thousands of years 11. Star movement "Fixed" stars give perfect Where possible event can Star movements are anciently intervals for retrotiming be tied to fixed stars implicated in planetary movements 12. Planet and cometary A position today gives a re- No force disturbs much the Planets and comets have bemovement liable position through the orbits of planets haved changeably in recent ages times 13. Cf. IV with I, III, V Earth-other planet compari- Each planet has its own in- All planets bear the marks of sons and correlations of dividual unaffected exis- their experiences with other events and causes tence planets 14. Succession and beha- Planet-associated divinities Mythological materials are Mythology permits increasingly viors of divinities are function of time when superstitions, gibberish; un- exact and reliable correlaplanets active proven correlations tions; V.1.-2 10 V. Cultural Measures 1. Mythological time Sublimated and fantastic Pure fantasy, primitive, Simplified hidden but true sequences and/or indecipherable messages, sometimes decipherable 2. Legendary time Collectively affirmed fixed Same but more intelligible Same but sometimes clear and events and sequences accurate 3. Anniversaries Asserted or evident Random Celebrations or Celebrations of single or psytemporal fixation of based upon eternal recur- chically combined natural intensive event of typerences events IV.-14,V.1 -2 -10 4. Calendars Pre-historical and Often confused but OK if Rarely confused; reflect difhistorical systems of in line with present time ferent times; decipherable time reckoning 5. Mechanical clocks Devices, sundials, shadow Unintelligible if not in keep- Correct "fossils" of different sticks, and process flows ing with present time time-periods calibrated to time 6. Archaeological loca- Cultural data arranged by Usually human-caused or Often radical changes and hiation and succession 1.3, development stages, normal present forces tuses catastrophically caused and causes of hiatuses 11 7. Timed records. Reports of experiences, suc- Often inept, primitive, con- Usually correct but mistakenly cessive events, or astrology flicting with true time edited or for extinct timeperiods 8. Memorial generations. Oral long-time transmission Unreliable; too many breaks Highly disciplined, sometimes plus V.-1, 2, One M.G. and much fantasy valid and reliable = 50 year 9. Cycles of Ages. Theories of successive ages Mythical and fantastic; Plots main lines of natural of chaos and creation superstitious cultural history; fragmentary 10. Cross-cultural Synchronization by common Independent invention or Traumatic independent invention co- experience experiences of culture diffusion and coercive diffusion items of catastrophism
So, again, please bear with some of the misaligned text in the original. Here is that Figure 6 again...
(The website was supposed to have attached the pdf here....) (Ok, found out that the website doesn't allow pdfs to be uploaded. That is kind of an astounding mistake! I wonder how many dozens of other people have been surprised by that stupidity.)
Incredible! Bizarre! The extension .txt (text) is also not allowed. And, to complete the embarrasing stupidity of the site designers, the extension .htm is also not allowed!!
That's like saying, you can eat any food you want to, as long as it is not meat, vegetables, or fruit!
You see, I want Dr. De Grazia's discussion to appear here, so that it will stimulate our discussion, and so that this forum will resume. I won't post the entire chapter, Collapsing Tests Of Time, since it is 79 (pdf) pages long. However, here are a few of the pages about radiochronology. I also want everyone to note, that it is the popular culture that will only pay attention to the new, that says that only novelty is good, not the scholarly or academic culture. This is a very American trait, and we have succeeded in exporting it to most of the world, during the past 50 years. We, though, in the academic, research, and scholarly subcultures, know that the importance of a published, or even unpublished work, is its contents first, not its date of publication. That is why Dr. De Grazia is ignored in the websites, blogs, and forums that are part of the popular culture, the general American culture that comprises 99% of the users of the Web. I also note further that these works by De Grazia, who, when he was young, was a Velikovsky protege, published these works in the 1980s, and that very little has occurred in science or been published since then, which is new, regarding the topics and subjects that he writes about. Most of what is new in those areas, can be found, or links to it found, in this forum! So, and excerpt from that Chapter follows here: Jone Dae
RADIODATING William Thomson (Lord Kelvin, 1824-1907) estimated in 1899 that the Earth might be no older than 24 million years if its matter were chemically inert and its heat only the primordial remnant. Other scientists disagreed, opting for longer durations to accomplish evolutionary processes. How uncertain were the stratigraphic estimates of time that geologists relied upon before new radiometric techniques came into use a generation ago is revealed in their quick surrender to radiometry: it is common joke that the earth has aged a billion years per decade for several decades, all owing to new tests of time by radiochronometry [30]. Certain elements, such as potassium-40 and uranium-238, which are to be found in rocks of the crust of the Earth, especially at or near surface levels, are radioactive. They are sometimes called "parent elements" insofar as they decay into "daughter" elements by giving up electrons or by other means [31]. They began their decay as soon as they were formed. One calculates their life-span by figuring backwards from today's rate of decay as witnessed in a sample of the element. A rock matrix presumably will contain the parent element and the daughter element in proportion to its age, unless it had undergone some exceptional experience. The dozen or so transformations used for dating purposes include uranium-238 decaying into lead-206, of potassium-40 decaying into argon-40, and of rubidium-87 decaying into strontium-87 [32]. None of these methods is useful directly for the period since 14,000 B.P. because the decay into daughter elements is too slow to detect over the short time. However, radiodating challenges our model of quantavolution indirectly when it produces long-term dates where short-term dates are expected. For example if, by potassium-40 argon-40 dating, the ocean floor appears to be 100 to 200 million years old, then it cannot have been formed between 13,000 B.P. and 9,000 B.P. Also, when igneous rocks associated with hominid bones of the Olduvai gorge, dated by the same technique, produce an age of about 1.75 million years, then the bones cannot be of the holocene epoch. Major problems occur with radiodating. One is in the setting of a rate of decay and therefore setting a date for "time zero" within a reasonable margin of error. Regarding the "time zero" problem, the radio "clocks" work on vast ages, from one billion to five billion years of age. Adjustments in the so-called decay constant may move all tested rocks up and down the time scale by many millions of years. Although such adjustment never approach a short-term position, they cause doubts as to whether there is in fact a constant rate of decay to be discovered. A second kind of difficulty deals with high-energy events. Radio-chemical methods of determining pre-historic age are extensions of the uniformitarian premise that the chosen chemical elements have remained unchanged in a closed system, save for the decay process, since the clock started to tick. They assume that nothing would affect the parent or daughter element, apart from the expected normal decay from one to the other; nothing could tamper with the clock. Recent studies cast doubt upon this theory; high forces can break and enter the clock. The concept of "half-life" is used in radioactive decay time measurements. The half-life of an aggregate of an element is the length of time required for half the atoms of the aggregate to decay into the new element. The half-life of uranium-238 is 4.5 billion years, calculated backwards from presents rates of decay. Can the process of decay be so regular [33] ? Decay is the losing of an electron from an atom that is unstable; it therefore amounts to a transmutation. The occasion of the decay is a force. The force is another particle from another statistical aggregate. This force is regularly and randomly applied to the "A" aggregate causing a regular rate of loss. Each "A" atom has an equal chance of being hit in the bombardment. Hence whatever affects the bombarding aggregate will affect the rate of decay of "A". And all "A's" may not be identical. Some "A's" may be "harder to hit," "resist cleavage," or "repel the projectiles." Still, as an aggregate, "A" might respond uniformly to the force causing is transmutation. Radiation physicist H.C. Dudley [34] has insisted that the equations describing radioactive decay rates were crudely derived long ago: "Bluntly, they are incorrect; but they nonetheless appear in our latest textbooks...Studies have varied the decay characteristics of 12 other radionuclides [besides 7Be and 90Nb] with changes in the energy state of the orbital electrons; by pressure, temperature, electric and magnetic fields, stress in molecular layers etc.," citing G. T. Emery. Dudley further asserts that in certain cases, the "decay event A is causally related to decay event B occurring later, such that the time distributions of all decay events were no longer truly random, as required by current theory. There appears to be a chain type reaction operating...similar to that observed in neutron induced sustained nuclear fission," here citing chemists J. L. Anderson and G. W. Spangler. Dudley asks for the incorporating in decay theory of "the energy state of the entire atom [not just the nucleus] and on parameters of interaction with an energy-rich subquantic medium." The work of Anderson Spangler and Dudley implies this for revolutionary primevalogy: decay rates for radioactive elements are dependent upon high-energy forces in the environment, and may be varied little or much. Radioactive decay can be compared with chain reactions in nuclear fission. Hence, at certain points in time, especially when the phenomenon of the catastrophic tube occurred, time pressures (based on today's retrojections) would have been instantly and completely disrupted. RADIATION TURBULENCE We are conjecturing further, here, that major disturbances in the parent-daughter relationship may occur as a result of radiation storms and typhonic impact explosions. Lesser and more localized in effect, and often inter-connected with radiation storms are jovian bolts, phaetonic atmospheric penetration, titanic large body encounters, and dense material fall-outs. These operate as follows: Cosmic radiation consists of high-energy particles that bombard the earth sufficiently at the present time to permit the presence in the atmosphere of atoms of all chemical elements. Both the particles striking earth and the transmutations of particles are varied. When, according to quantavolutionary theory, agemaking and age-breaking episodes occurred, the earth passed near to heavily radiating bodies and was also subjected to heavy radiation storms from a distance. In fact, every change in the earth's atmosphere lessened or increased the reception of radiation: the cloud canopies, the lowering or dropping of canopies, the rising of exploded vapors, the destruction of biospheres and the loss or gain of atmosphere from comets, meteors and planets. In all of this, the parent and daughter elements involved in radio clocks have experienced a turbulent history. No pair of elements can be granted to have remained locked in their crystallized rock interior since the beginning of its time. There is no way of commencing the history of potassium and argon at the bottom of the sea. The bottom formed in a turbulent atmosphere and hydrosphere, first wet, then drowned shallowly. then deeply submerged but all the while actively spreading. The waters that poured in came directly from the skies, through skies via the sea and earth evaporation, and through runoffs loaded with detritus. Under such circumstances the clocks might be deemed invalid. They were set wrongly to begin with. They have maintained a semblance of agreement of very old ages by first of all having had similar recent experiences within their rocks, and through laboratory fudging of tests and samples back and forth. Yet even "normal" experience of today's solar system presents a severe problem. Nitrogen contained in air and in radioactive mineral undergoes a considerable transmutation of isotropic elements. Lead undergoes the same. The cause is neutronpromoted transmutations. As a result, the decay process of uranium into lead is paralleled by neutron-to-lead activity. When as in certain Katanga and Canadian ore bodies, a neutronpromoted corrective factor is introduced into the uranium-to-lead decay process, the daughter element that isowed to uranium decay is so reduced as to produce a zero age result [35]. This kind of problem is rendered even more difficult under solarian conditions by problems of selecting and sampling rocks, by the fluxing and painting of the surfaces of rocks where trace elements aggregate, and by the need to transfer (with dubious validity) the findings of a test in one part of the lithosphere to conclusions about tests in other parts. Problems of leaching and fluxing are severe. Rivers carry an estimated average of 6 x 1010 grams per year of uranium down to the oceans. If the lead is left behind in the rocks this escaping uranium is effectively turning back the clock [36]. Parents are leaving their daughters, and the remaining parents are being charged with their existence. The amount of uranium in the ocean, moreover, is so small (10 to the 17the power grams) as to have been produced even under non-exponential solarian conditions within about 10 million years. With quantavolutionary theory, the exponential rate of deposit would eradicate even this time calculation. Helium in the atmosphere is originated radioactively from the uranium and thorium in the lithosphere and from cosmic rays from the galaxy and beyond. Conventional ages of the lithosphere require that 1020 grams of helium should have been released into the atmosphere whereupon some of it would escape into outer space. However, the rate of escape is too slow under solarian conditions to explain why so little helium exists in the atmosphere. Given the amount of helium present there, it has been calculated that the age of the atmosphere must be only 12,000 years [37]. That is, some 12,000 years ago, the atmosphere was reconstituted. Radioactivity was discovered a century ago but time-measures of radioactivity are largely a post-World War II development. Despite the shortness of its life, changes in the field have been numerous and radical. Its leaders turn quickly in new directions whenever problems are encountered, introducing new half-lives, slicing experimental rocks differently, and giving their favor now to one, and again to another technique. POTASSIUM-ARGON DATING Potassium-argon dating has become highly favored recently, for reasons too byzantine to develop here. For, the criticisms that can be addressed to uranium-lead dating hold also against 40K/40A dating. Indeed, argon (one of the "noble gases" whose exclusiveness or slipperiness gave them their name) is generally to be suspected of vagrancy. Also, the stability of potassium is in question. "Potassium can be made to diverge widely form conventional abundance by countercurrent electromigration."[38] Argon-40 will be present in a rock if potassium-40 is present and has had time to decay. Only igneous, and certain types of oncemelted metamorphic rock, can be tested. Sediments cannot. The half-life of 40K is so long (1.3 billion years for half the decay to occur) that almost no argon-40 is to be found in a young rock, and therefore tests are not yet considered valid for less than 100,000 years. Dates produced by related tests are often discordant. Material taken from the Salt Lake Crater on Oahu, Hawaii, dated from 200 to 3,300 million years [39]; the Moon has been dated as older than the universe [40]; and 200-year old lavas, that should show zero Argon, produced enough to allow 12 and 20 millionyear old dates at Kilauea, Hawaii [41]. I shall only mention that, under such circumstances, in other cases, the problems of full and open reporting may become serious in the field of chronometric science; as in public affairs, there arises a temptation to dismiss, "fudge" or even conceal some of the evidence [42]. Argon, like uranium and radioactive trace elements generally, tends to rise to the surface of the Earth. Hence surface rocks (and these include all that have been measured) will be high in argon content. Argon also can be infused into hot rocks from the air and kept there as the rocks cool. This could have happened to Earth if Mars, thought now to be rich in atmospheric argon, encountered Earth 2,700 years ago; the same Martian argon may be what is making Moon samples, so young in some respects, so old by 40K - 40A dating [43]. The U.S. Venus probe of 1978 found astonishing quantities of argon-36 and possibly argon-40 in the burning atmosphere. Argon, being "exclusive," "slippery," and "noble," leaks. It escapes into the atmosphere; it flows horizontally. It prefers rocks of certain types to other rocks. On the Island of Naxos, Greece, Poul Andriessen found side by side metamorphic rocks which, in tests performed in his Dutch laboratory, produced ages of 5 to 15 million, and of 200 million years (amphibolite ultrabasic rock) [44]. Australian tektites have given 700,000 to 860,000 years by the 40K - 40A method in 7 to 20 thousandyear- old strata [45]. Funkhauser and Naughton, faced by the Hawaiian incongruities, speculated that excess argon could be held in crystal irregularities and imperfections such as grain boundaries and dislocations in the rocks. This likely theory would appear to throw the K-A ratio upon the mercy of petrology rather than chronology. Granted argon is more abundant in rocks nearer the surface, a lava flow will erupt melted surface rock first, than lower rock, then still lower rock. This may falsely date a set of lavas, although the law of superposition is correct. As the law demands, the strata of lava on top will be younger (and hold less argon) than the strata below (with more argon); moreover all will be very old for the reasons given above. As matters stand, it would be a grave risk for geology to rearrange the phanerozoic scale according to 40K - 40A dating principles. (excerpt from Chapter 3, Collapsing Tests Of Time, from Chaos and Creation)
@Lloyd, Thanks for those links. I'll be taking a look at that today. It is good to see activity on this forum. Like so many of the other forums on this site, this is information that needs to be made available to high school, college, and university students, if not taught to them. And therefore it must be made available to their instructors, as well, or taught to them. I have found only a few other instructors, on campuses other than U. of Chicago, who are teaching De Grazia's Quantavolution. I wonder if there isn't a way for us to re-post these comments on a website, that academic instructors blog on. JD.
jone dae
Re: C14 dating.
@Lloyd, I want to add that, Prof. De Grazia published the first account of scientific creation, that is scientific, shows how humans were created, and employs the information about the effects on life on earth that the EU model describes! Perhaps one of us could mention that to whomever made that "scientific creation" website. If you're curious, his account is in Homo Schizo I, http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavolution/QUANTAVOL/hs1~. BTW you can download those for free, in pdf, text, or HTML formats. (I'm into freedom of information, here as applied to scholarly and academic publications.) JD
Lloyd
Re: C14 dating.
Jone, if you'd like to help compile useful data or source links etc on this or similar topics, Charles' site has good places to do that, such as here, http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=7455, where anyone can start a forum on such topics or just post material there, either individually or in group efforts.
jone dae
Re: C14 dating.
Great; thank you for the link, Lloyd. The site doesn't seem very active right now, but we'll see. But I do like to see the activity on the Thunderbolts forums. Of course, you are welcome to post or comment on my already existing blog site, jonedae.wordpress.com . Lot of interesting links for you there. JD
jone dae
Re: C14 dating.
Well, and someone has put some work into making the site clean, easy to read, and easy to use. -Do you blog there, Lloyd?
JD
4realScience
Re: C14 dating.
Lloyd, I admit my error on C14 dating,
I posted a message where I said I believed C14 dating was cross confirmed by ice cores and tree rings. I take that back now that I have seen the data on the Lost Squadron of the P-38 WWII fighters found under the ice in Greenland. This find falsifies all ice core data, doesn't it? So the claims made that ice cores and tree rings correspond must be wrong.
Now I no longer trust any of these dating methods.
Reader, if you are not aware of the P-38s data just do a Google query like this: p-38 lost squadron ice cores
What we find is that a squadron WWII airplanes were abandoned in Greenland in the 1940s. They have recently been found beneath many thousands of ice layers at about 268 feet depth in the ice. This totally falsifies the theories of ice core dating, which says the planes are thousands of years old.
I stand corrected.
Lloyd
Re: C14 dating.
4Real said: This find falsifies all ice core data, doesn't it? So the claims made that ice cores and tree rings correspond must be wrong. Now I no longer trust any of these dating methods.
It may be possible to get some general time frame agreement among such dating methods, but it's much more complicated than what the science media and major media pretend.
Catastrophists have discussed most dating methods since at least the 1970s, when I first started reading such discussions. Right away, like in Talbott's Pensee' magazine etc, they pointed out that tree ring thicknesses vary considerably even in nearby locations. For example, if a tree grows in a valley, its rings will differ much from one that grows high on a hillside. A drought will cause poor ring growth on the hillside, while the one in the valley will have normal good growth.
It's a bit like finger-printing though. If you get enough microscopic details, you can find correlations among methods that are more reliable. I heard that volcanoes tend to have unique "fingerprints" in the form of element and maybe isotope abundances, which means the percent of each element or isotope found at a location. Volcanic eruptions that span the globe then are likely to be detectable worldwide, wherever that debris has not been eroded away too much. That's like smearing fingerprints. As long as fingerprints aren't smeared or abraded too much, they'll be very reliable. The Santorini volcanic eruption is said to have a fingerprint on land, maybe on seafloors, and also in the ice sheet cores. So those datings may be fairly accurate.
However, it's wrong for conventional science to assume that only one layer of snow was always deposited on the ice sheets each year and that none of the layers melted. Catastrophism finds that during global cataclysms unusually heavy snow on ice sheets, as well as flooding over large areas, and in some places drought, and other disasters likely occurred. This means that much of the ice sheets may have been deposited in very short time periods either once or a number of times.
Since the global cataclysms seem to have ended about 4,500 to 5,000 years ago, dating after that is likely to be more reliable than before that. I heard yesterday that stone henge was C-14 dated to 4,500 years BP and a second nearby wood henge recently found dates to the same time. So those structures apparently were built right after the cataclysms ended, although C-14 dating can be off normally by a few hundred years. In some cases it can be more off.
Conventional science has a habit of Jumping to Conclusions, which is totally unscientific. That's corruption in science that allows that. The more forensic methods etc are adapted, the more accurate dating methods can become. Scott Wolter claims to be a forensic geologist and his findings are shown on a tv show, called America Unearthed, I think. He's finding quite a bit of evidence of Europeans in America long before Columbus. The Great Lakes area was apparently mined for copper by Europeans 3,500 years ago, which produced the Bronze Age. So interesting findings are always coming along.
