Biknewb Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: Reply with quote Michael Goodspeed wrote: ........ This is the not the first such outburst by the comet — its discoverer Edwin Holmes witnessed a similar brightening in 1892 followed by a second eruption 2-and-a-half months later. .............. It's interesting to note that the diagram of Holmes' orbit shows that it crossed the ecliptic (the plane of the planets movement around the Sun) quite close to the time of its closest approach to Mars. So it is certainly conceivable that Mars' own plasma sheath, by penetrating that of Holmes, provoked the fateful breakdown. Though this would not qualify as a coherent hypothesis today, it is the kind of issue raised by the electric model that is systematically ignored by mainstream astronomers.
This is a great summary!
Though the possibility of influence by Mars is tempting, I would like to add this: - The alignment with Mars happened about 4 weeks before the brightening started, when Holmes was close to Mars, but well above the ecliptic. - In the period before Nov 6 1892 there is no alignment. Holmes is on its way to aphelion and Mars is on the other side of the Sun. Holmes did just cross the ecliptic and went below it. - And what about the 44 other alignments between Mars and Holmes in the period 1892-2007? Nothing happened then.
I certainly agree to the idea of the breakdown of the plasma sheath, but I think we will have to determine yet what caused the disturbance.
Our best bet IMHO is to compare the circumstances from 1892 and 2007.
If the two situations are comparable, I can make the prediction that Holmes will have lost it's shape by the end of November and fade away towards the end of the year. On January 3 it will flare up again. If this would happen, it would make the strongest case for the Electric Comet theory!
gerards regards
(Disclaimer: All of my observations come from this orbit diagram which "should not be used for determining accurate long-term trajectories (over several years or decades) or planetary encounter circumstances")
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
StefanR Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:45 pm
http://solarb.msfc.nasa.gov/ Quote: In the movie above, fifteen days of solar activity were seen with Hinode's X-ray Telescope (XRT) from October 13 - October 28. The solar surface (photosphere) had no named spots (see the Solar Monitor) during this time. Note the coronal holes at the north pole and in the southern hemisphere. Peppering the disk of the Sun are the bright points; these appear, disappear, and vary in intensity. Solar activity (as measured by X-ray flux) was very low during this time period, with essentially events no events (see Today's Space Weather). For an explanation of flare classes, go to Space Weather's Classification of X-ray Solar Flares. More XRT images may be found at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory (SAO).
Quote: Coronal Holes
Coronal holes are regions where the corona is dark. These features were discovered when X-ray telescopes were first flown above the earth's atmosphere to reveal the structure of the corona across the solar disc. Coronal holes are associated with "open" magnetic field lines and are often found at the Sun's poles. The high-speed solar wind is known to originate in coronal holes.
Quote: Courtesy LASCO/NRL 21-Oct-07 19:31:00 to 22-Oct-07 03:54:00http://www.lmsal.com/solarsoft/last_events/gev_20071021_1926.html
FS3 PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject: POSITIONING Great thread, with great inputs and ideas. Let me add another.
I just produced the image of the cometfinder of the Oct.23th, the day when Holmes started to light up. Having in mind a certain constellation between the "major players" in our solar system - that means certain angles between the main nodes planets - it could be very likely that Saturn, Jupiter and Earth did form a 120° pattern at that time:
Although this might mean nothing - it perhaps gives another clue - connected with the position of the Parker Spiral - respectively the conductivity level at that very place in space where Holmes has been passing through. I don't think that Mars has anything to do with it - but another observation in my little diagram is the obvious "almost"-alignement of the four inner planets
Phps. someone can check the Ephemeris for confirming the angles between Jupiter-Saturn-Earth on Oct.23, 2007...
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
MGmirkin Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:33 pm Hmm, that *is* interesting.
Don't know if that helps or not? Maybe red herring, maybe not.
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
FS3 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: the 33 degree Reply with quote Let´s go back a bit to a small caption (in red) that might be of interest - at least I hold it much too important for not beeing overlooked...
You can see how the comet, sun and earth relate orbitally. Great tool.
... Also interesting: Possible Detection of a Short Tail Behind Comet 17/P Holmes http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.rss ... ?pid=23901 Quote: A preliminary analysis, performed by astronomers Pierre Bastien and Rene Doyon from Universite de Montréal and the Centre de Recherche en Astrophysique du Quebec (CRAQ) clearly shows a bright elongated feature surrounding the more luminous comet's coma. This elongated feature, probably a cloud of dust and gas, which resembles a small tail, is going out at position angle of 145 degrees (+/- 5 deg), measured from north and going east. This direction makes an angle of about 33 degrees relative to the Sun-comet direction. Although the images display tantalizing evidence of a tail, the direction of the feature does not point directly in the direction opposite to the Sun, as expected.
...
As this short but nevertheless telling observance ("Tail of comet NOT pointing away from the Sun")may open a door towards our assumption - connected to the "Parker Spiral" - that Holmes is passing through an area of more "dense" elictricity - one of the "waves" of that spiral.
The Sun's spiraling magnetic field as viewed from ~100 AU away. Credit: Steve Suess, NASA.
conclusion: magnetism everywhere
never mentioned explicitely: electricity
Wink
Regarding my former post with the obvious 120° angel between Jupiter-Saturn-Earth - I´ve made a few calculations - and it turned out that those three planets indeed form a "triangle of least resistance" ( http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... .php?t=520 )- respectively minimal loss in transporting of alternating currents (see: three separate coils in an AC three-phase system) over long distances.
Moreover, on the Oct.23-25, 2007 Holmes raises at about 60° appr. above the line in the Ecliptic of the Solarsystem, drawn from the Sun - through Mercury - towards Earth, that makes one of the three points of the triangle, formed additionally by Jupiter and Saturn. So Holmes might be indeed included into such a closed flow (what could be "flowing"?), as far as specific angles are involved.
I have the feeling that it would be indeed productive - if someone could provide the actual geometry, based on exact ephemeris´ - and post it here.
Thanks everyone for all these wonderful images! These three images tell a very interesting story IMO. The four inner planets are in a rough alignment with Holmes during this timeline. As we see in the Hinode images, there is a *huge* surface are that is undergoing an obvious electrical discharge process in the upper solar atmosphere. That electrically active region is rotating past the planetary configuration during that timeline. The third image shows us the solar wind data during the buildup to that same timeline, and the solar wind data is overlayed against the active region on the sun as seen in 195A SOHO images. The ACE instrument records a signiificant increase in solar wind activity as the active region rotates past the planetary alignment. That solar wind begins building on the 19th and "peaks" around the 21st, and undoubtedly passes by the comet a few days later. I think that this data suggests that the active region on the solar surface is interacting with the planetary and cometary alignments and that alignment results in a significant increase in the plasma flow around the comet.
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
FS3 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: year 2000 Reply with quote I just checked some constellations.
During the great sunstorm on July 14, 2000 - that even knocked out satellites - and was directed towards Earth directly - there was an almost exact 90° between SATURN+JUPITER towards URANUS.
45° in relation with this "square" there was EARTH - and(!!!) opposite to Earth (on the other side of the Sun) there was MARS - as well at 45° - and 180° to Earth.
SeaSmith wrote: ~ Michael Mozina wrote:
Quote: I think that this data suggests that the active region on the solar surface is interacting with the planetary and cometary alignments and that alignment results in a significant increase in the plasma flow around the comet.
I like it ...
Exclamation
Additionally I do think geometry plays a crucical role - as the planets can be seen as nodes in a frequency pattern - that our Solar System is "humming"...
If you look at the _eit_ images for 10/17 and 10/18, the electrically active area is pointed at the earth (and the comet). There are two distinct "bursts" from that active region, the largest being on the 18th.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:16 am Post subject: Re: the 33 degree Reply with quote biknewb wrote: FS3 wrote: I have the feeling that it would be indeed productive - if someone could provide the actual geometry, based on exact ephemeris´ - and post it here.
FS3
And may I suggest to compare this to the situation of November 6 1892?
In that flare up, Jupiter and Saturn are on opposite sides of the solar system, and the comet is not directly between them but it is crossing the orbital plane. Unfortunately I can't round up the SOHO images for you from 1892.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:35 am Post subject: Re: year 2000 Reply with quote Here is a running difference still shot from around 7:30AM on 10/18/2007. The dark "wings" near the center of the sun represent areas where the CME originates. Since this particular CME is pointed directly at us, the Lasco c2 and c3 images won't do us much good, but I will take look to see what STEREO saw from this event and if I find anything interesting, I'll post it here later.
I put both the shorter EIT image for that day on my website that can download here and the longer running difference SOHO image of the same event here.
There was another smaller flare on the 17th, but I think this is the one that lit up the Holmes comet.
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
Upriver PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:53 am Very interesting conclusion. Makes sense. we know that planetary alignments affect radio reception. To bad I cant find the article again because as I remember the critical angles were 90 and 180 degrees.
So the idea is that a temporary Birkeland current was formed that allowed enough current to flow to light up the comet.
Also did it change its orbit? or just light it up?
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
Michael Mozina Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:31 am Post subject: Reply with quote earls wrote: "Additionally I do think geometry plays a crucical role - as the planets can be seen as nodes in a frequency pattern - that our Solar System is "humming"..."
...Yikes. Brilliant. Now... How do you hear the music?
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: Re: POSITIONING Reply with quote upriver wrote: Also did it change its orbit? or just light it up?
I would not expect it's orbit to actually change because of plasma and electron flows. If it's orbit has been changed, I would assume that a collision was responsible for that type of an effect.
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
Biknewb Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:49 am
The old and recent situations of Holmes' brightening do not seem to compare very well. Also do not forget that more than a century passed between the two events. There must have been a lot of alignments and cme's in this period without any effect.
Still, the idea of a Birkeland-current-stimulating configuration is a good one.
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
**** PAGE #9 SEEMS LOST ****
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
Biknewb Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: Angelic comet Reply with quote StefanR wrote: Oops, must have been blinded by the light:
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Quote: This paper summarizes the results of observations of Comet 17P/Holmes at Starlight Farms. The equipment is a C11 at f/10, DSS7 and 402 camera for spectra, and the C11 at f/6 with ST7E/CFW8 for images. All data are taken using MaximDL. Spectroscopic data were transferred to an Excel spreadsheet for analysis and graphing.
Explanation: What's happening to Comet Holmes? The rare comet remains visible to the unaided eyes of northern observers as an unusual small puff ball in the constellation of Perseus. A high resolution set of images of the comet's inner coma, taken last week and shown above, reveals significant detail. Close inspection shows numerous faint streamers that are possibly the result of jets emanating from the comet's nucleus. Comet Holmes has remained surprisingly bright over the past week, with luminosity estimates ranging from between visual magnitudes 2 to 3, making it brighter than most stars visible on a dark sky. The above image of Comet Holmes was made with a small automated 0.38-meter telescope hirable over the web for a small fee.
StefanR
Re: Recovered: Holmes gets very bright
Biknewb Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: Angelic comet Reply with quote Oh rats, now the angel is gone again. That should teach me not to build ideas upon one single image. ^^
