Re: The Sun: Nuclear Fusion & Electric Reconnection
Actually, it's Talbott debating Nereid, and we'll just lurk and learn. We're organizing something else here. But you're right — it really should be Thornhill (or even Scott) who should get into the heavily technical issues with Nereid.
seasmith
Re: The Sun: Nuclear Fusion & Electric Reconnection
Hear, Hear...
Lloyd
Re: The Sun: Nuclear Fusion & Electric Reconnection
* Talbott has asked Nereid to debate on the Electric Sun Theory, but is still in discussion with her, I believe, and that debate will likely have a restricted thread on the Electric Universe board. * While waiting for that debate to begin, I asked Charles to have a similar debate with us, both here and in a separate document at https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ag-rQhrZLHZEdHFkan~. * I'm waiting to see when he's ready to post there. * I've tentatively posted the following there, which I or Charles will hopefully revise, if he likes. There are 3 columns there with these headings and tentative data entries.
1. Debater 2. Relevant Facts for or against EU Electric Sun Theory - or - Questions for Opponents 3. References for Relevant Facts 2-1. Charles? 2. In the photosphere and chromosphere, filaments and prominences are electric currents responding to an electric field between charge-separated particle streams. 3. Charles' Theory 3-1. Lloyd 2. EU Theory supposes that charge separation occurs at the birth of galaxies as quasars from galactic plasma guns. 3. EU Theory 4-1. Lloyd 2. It also supposes that charge separation may occur within large bodies as well, due to gravity. 3. EU Theory 5-1. Lloyd 2. What is your theory about how charge separation occurs? 3. Question
* If anyone else has experience organizing debates, feel free to jump in and help, or take over. I think I can handle it, but, I may not be very efficient at it, so someone else may make this go more smoothly. * In the mean time, if anyone else has questions about EU electric sun theory, or Charles' electric sun theory, or if you have relevant data, I guess you could mention it at any time in this thread, if Charles is okay with that. * My intent and hope is to be able to get such questions and data organized within the debate at the above link.
* If this works out pretty well, I think we'd like to debate Charles' tornado theory too later. And we'd like to discuss the facts relevant to solar nuclear fusion theory, if Dave and Nereid's debate doesn't cover it well enough.
Lloyd
Re: The Sun: Nuclear Fusion & Electric Reconnection
* Okay, the debate has perhaps now begun. Here's Charles' opening statement of his theory, I think. Charles, do you confirm?
Charles Since filaments begin and end in the photosphere or beneath it, we know that the charge separation is between two different regions within the Sun. It is not a current between the Sun and its environment. So we have to identify a charge separation mechanism contained entirely within the Sun. The proposal is that plasma jets traveling at extreme velocities will become charge-separated, because of opposing magnetic fields generated by positive and negative charges within the plasma moving in the same direction. Charles' Theory
* A solar filament is also called a prominence. Is this a filament: http://dsc.discovery.com/space/gallery/space-images/sun-sol~? Is a solar filament coiled like a light bulb filament? * Charles: plasma jets traveling at extreme velocities will become charge-separated, because of opposing magnetic fields generated by positive and negative charges within the plasma moving in the same direction. * Does a filament start out as a single loop, followed by more loops? * Does a single loop start out as a plasma jet? * If so, where does the jet start out? What gives it extreme velocity?
Lloyd
Re: The Sun: Nuclear Fusion & Electric Reconnection
* I'm editing my previous post for the debate. * Charles is starting the debate by explaining his theory for solar filaments, which are also called prominences. - Charles, is a solar filament a series of plasma loops or arches? - Is this a filament? http://dsc.discovery.com/space/gallery/space-images/sun-sol~? - I think this is a video of a filament forming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBoI6PyNcJc. - If a filament is a series of loops, does it start out as a single loop, followed by formation of more loops? - And does each loop start out as a plasma jet? - Does each plasma jet start out below the photosphere? - What causes plasma jets to shoot up through the photosphere at extreme velocity? * You said: plasma jets traveling at extreme velocities will become charge-separated, because of opposing magnetic fields ... * And opposing magnetic fields [are] generated by positive and negative charges within the plasma moving in the same direction. - Wouldn't opposing magnetic fields cancel out? - Do you know of any webpages that explain how high speed plasma jets cause charge separation? - Are the positive and negative charges in the plasma stream separated into separate streams? - Or are they separated into tubular double layers, one tube inside the other? - The photosphere consists of tall, largely vertical plasma vortexes, called granules. - Do the plasma jets shoot up between granules?
Lloyd
Re: The Sun: Nuclear Fusion & Electric Reconnection
THE DEBATE * Below is my edited version of the debate, which Charles lately updated at https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ag-rQhrZLHZEdHFkan~. I'm paraphrasing the debate to try to simplify and clarify it. If I make any errors in my editing, I hope Charles or anyone else will point out the errors. The most interesting to me of Charles' statements I'm highlighting in red font. CHARLES: RULES: The scope of this debate will be the nature of sunspots, filaments (=prominences), and granules. - For the purpose of this discussion, only the term "filament" will be used, even when referring to prominences. FACTS: A filament is a series of visible charge stream loops in the chromosphere, starting in the photosphere or beneath it. - See http://dsc.discovery.com/space/gallery/space-images/sun-sol~, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBoI6PyNcJc. THEORY: A solar filament is not part of a current between the Sun and the galactic arm. - Filaments are currents responding to adjacent areas of opposite electric charge in the photosphere. - The currents generate magnetic fields. FACT: These magnetic fields then are what are measured from Earth, or satellites. THEORY: There is a charge separation mechanism in or below the photosphere. - Opposite charges in vertical high speed plasma jets starting below the photosphere generate opposing magnetic fields, which cause charge separation. LLOYD: Why don't these opposing magnetic fields cancel out? [waiting for reply] CHARLES:-THEORY - Each loop connects the poles of what started out as one plasma jet that was split into positive and negative components. - A loop might also connect the positive pole of one split stream with the negative pole of another. - This would result in a complex and highly dynamic interaction among components of different neighboring plasma jets. - Thermonuclear explosions in or below the photosphere cause the plasma jets to shoot up through the photosphere at extreme velocity. - Near-surface explosions produce solar flares. - Deeper or smaller explosions produce weaker plasma jets, forming sunspots and small coronal mass ejections. - Still deeper or smaller explosions produce the weakest plasma jets, the photospheric granules. LLOYD: What would cause the thermonuclear explosions? CHARLES-FACT: No webpages or sources are known that would show how high speed plasma jets cause charge separation. THEORY: Opposing magnetic fields cause positive and negative charges in the plasma stream to separate into separate streams. - The positive stream of ions, having greater mass and inertia, burrow through the photosphere. - The negative stream of electrons flow through the photosphere, due to the high conductivity of plasma at that temperature. - Opposite-polarity sunspots are two tubes side-by-side, one positive and the other negative. LLOYD: Do you mean opposite charge polarity- or opposite magnetic polarity sunspots? CHARLES-THEORY: A granule has a positive core with a negative sheath around the outside, tubular double layers, one tube inside the other. - The "loop" is a tip-to-sleeve current in a hemi-toroidal configuration. LLOYD: What loops are you referring to and can you explain that statement better? - The photosphere consists of tall, largely vertical plasma tubes called granules? CHARLES-THEORY: Yes, granules appear to be the tops of vertical plasma streams. FACTS: I don't know of any evidence of granules being vortexes - There is only sparse evidence that large sunspots sometimes have a weak rotation. THEORY: The positive plasma stream shoots up through the center of a granule. - Then hydrostatic pressure causes the stream to splay outward. - The negative sheath curls inward from the outside. LLOYD: Can you present a diagram of the negative sheath curling inward or explain it better? CHARLES-THEORY: These negative sheath curls are the faculae on the sides of granules. FACT: Granules are relatively consistent in brightness across their tops, with darker regions between granules. THEORY: Viewed from the side, there are brighter vertical streaks on the sides of granules. - These bright streaks are negative charge streams interacting with internal positive charges. - The streams mushroom outward at the top of the granule. - See http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpi~. LLOYD: Why are granules all about the same height and why are they so different from flares etc? - Where plasma streams mushroom out at the tops of granules, are the opposite charges recombining?
CharlesChandler
Re: The Sun: Nuclear Fusion & Electric Reconnection
I'm still mulling over this, but I at least came up with a drawing that represents my thoughts concerning granules.
The proposal is that granules are similar in nature to coronal loops, in that oppositely-charged particle streams figure out that if they curve inward toward each other, the charges can recombine faster, as their magnetic fields no longer oppose each other in the loop configuration.
The difference is that a filament is a loop, while a granule is a half-toroid, in which the "curving" is a radial outward splaying of the positive core, and an inward curving of the negative sheath.
The big question remains: what causes the plasma jets? There are a variety of mechanisms that could cause plasma jets deep in the convective zone, but I really don't see anything in any of those mechanisms that could create the consistency in the size of the granules. So now I'm thinking that jets erupting from deep in the convective zone is an untenable hypothesis.
So now I'm considering a different idea. Maybe all of the acceleration is occurring in the sharp density gradient in the top 100,000 km of the Sun. In other words, maybe the plasma is "boiling up" through the photosphere. I still like the idea of the photosphere being a shell that contains the pressure within. That's actually not a theory, but a well-documented fact. The Sun is larger than it has a right to be given its mass, and then the density drops off sharply in the photosphere. So there is definitely some sort of containment going on in the photosphere. And I still like the idea that the nature of the containment is electric arcing, wherein photospheric "loops" (filaments or hemi-toroidal granules) increase the temperature of the photosphere, causing expansion, but the nature of the arcing also pulls the loops back into the Sun, thereby creating a shell. Then the question becomes: could plasma slipping through holes in the shell get accelerated enough by the density gradient in the top 100,000 km to develop electrodynamic behaviors such as I'm pondering (charge separation due to extreme speeds, creating the potential for electric arcing)?
More to come, though it may time some time to further sanity-check these ideas, and then to start attempting to fill in the blanks with real numbers.
Sparky
Re: The Sun: Nuclear Fusion & Electric Reconnection
We have shown the existence of unipolar magnetic charges, which flow in a homogeneous magnetic field in or against the direction of the lines of force. This can be observed directly by means of a microscope. Therefore we have to deal with magnetic currents in a physical and technical sense. Around a magnetic current there exists an electric field.
