The Virgo/Virgin speculation is intriguing... but I question the scholarship at this point. Back to Lloyd's question regarding the rapidity of the continental drift event: Hours vs. months seems implausible to me [the mechanism seems too catastrophic even for my taste!], but then my months vs. 100-millions of years must seem entirely implausible to standard modelers!! My starting point on the timing is the biblical record of 15o days after which the mountains began to appear above the receding waters of the great flood. Together with the psalmist's account of the mountains "going up" and the seas "going down" as a boundary condition for no future like cataclysm, I gather that this marks the end [major slowing] of the massive drift catastrophe.
Lloyd
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
Gordon, isn't the location of Noah's ark speculative? It was supposed to have been built of reeds, but the object on Mt. Ararat doesn't have reeds, does it? And could it not have been a "myth" or a celestial event? Fisher thinks dinosaurs lived on the supercontinent and that humans and mammals lived on east Antarctica, which was not yet connected to west Antarctica.
Assuming there was a physical Noah's ark, could it not have been out in the Indian Ocean for the 150 days, before running aground in a flooded part of Asia Minor?
PS, I had a question for you in the Earth History thread.
flyingcloud
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
WASHINGTON — A half-mile-wide asteroid looks as if it will come closer to smashing into our planet than any other space rock astronomers have tracked.
It will not hit Earth, they say. But its arrival in 28 years will be a visible reminder that space can be a dangerous place.
After computing a new path for the dangerous rock, NASA scientists and other astronomers determined this week that the asteroid would come close - but not strike - Earth on Aug. 7, 2027.
The asteroid could swing as close as 19,000 miles to Earth's surface. That is only one-twelfth the distance between here and the moon.
webolife
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
Lloyd, I neither bunk nor debunk Ark sighting claim... incontrovertible proof is lacking for each story I've heard so far... Regardless of the Ark, the original continents and oceans would not necessarily be identifiable in today's world. My thinking is once again based on the plain reading of the biblical record of: 1. The "matar" [Heb: hailing stones/Greek: meteors] began falling from the sky: these would have been massive asteroid impacts, or planetary discharge bolides, or ...??....; the astroblemes of which are found throughout the geologic column, incl the famous Chicxulub crater in the Gulf of Mexico. I visualize the entire Gulf of Mexico, as well as Hudson Bay as astroblemes of major earth-splitting impacts. According to the record, the "matar" continued to fall for 5 months, then stopped. 2. The "fountains of the great deep" erupted: These "fountains" [the current mid-ocean rift zones] would have originated "on land" as supercontinent splitting volcanic rifts/faults; became sea-floor spreading and signalled the beginning of the episode of continental drift. During this drift scenario, the coastlines and low topography original continent in-lands would have been repeatedly flooded by tsunami type action, wiping every unprotected thing from the surface of the land... this is the documented fossil record, as I see it. Animals living closest to the coast and in the shallow off-shore regions would have been buried first, followed by animals in a general order of increasing mobility, with plenty of exceptions to this order. 3. The rain fell, first the 40 days/nights of non-stop "gushing" [Heb: geshen], due to the sudden influx of condensation nuclei into the atmosphere, then ongoing rain on a more intermittent basis until it let off after 5 months. This was a relatively small contributor to the water load of the flood, unlike the depiction in children's versions of the flood story. 4. The Ark would have floated wherever the tsunami currents drifted it, not necessarily far out to sea... and after about 7+ months it grounded somewhere in the Ararat region, not necessarily on Ararat itself... it should be noted that during the next few months Noah observed the mountains rising up from the sea, and it's possible that this was the time many of the boundary range volcanics [eg. the Pacific Ring of Fire] took place. 5. Major erosion and subsequent deposition of sedimentary rocks occurred as the uplifts birthed watersheds that had not existed on the pre-flood continent, and not necessarily in the exact configuration of today. 6. Atmospheric "collapse", indicated at the beginning of the flood event, was followed by the rebuilding of today's global wind system which replaced a formerly worldwide greenhouse climate evidenced by the entire fossil record of the past... also triggered the Ice Age which lasted [as I see it] for a couple centuries, and up to the present. This restabilization of the atmosphere over the last several millenia has led to the current "global warming" hubbub. AGW is a smoke screen for the fact that the earth has been in a consistent warming trend, with a couple of small ice age gliches over the past few centuries.
(Lloyd, feel free to merge this with the Earth History thread.)
Lloyd
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
Flying Cloud said: After computing a new path for the dangerous rock, NASA scientists and other astronomers determined this week that the asteroid would come close - but not strike - Earth on Aug. 7, 2027.
That's interesting. Did you see what I wrote before as follows? The Signs of the Book of Revelation -Amos 4:13,5:18-20,8:9 refers to a solar eclipse that would happen in the end times -Rev. 6:12 solar eclipse and lunar eclipse in Jerusalem [will occur] on August 2 and August 16, 2027 A.D. -Revelation 12:1 the sky over Jerusalem [will show]: -the constellation Virgo is standing on her head; the moon is under her feet; Virgo is clothed in the sun -Mars symbol of male sex is located where Virgo's womb would be [These will occur] over Jerusalem at sunset on August 5, 2027 Looks like that's going to be a busy week! And maybe a prophecy.
Gordon, I think there's a good chance that Noah and the ark and the animals on it may have been an apparition in the sky and that the "fountains of the great deep" referred to the sky too, since most of the ancients seem to have referred to the sky as the "great deep", also as the ocean.
I consider your interpretation as plausible too, but I think the breakup of the supercontinent had to be due to the large asteroid impact that Mike Fisher found off east Africa. He points out that all of the continents that moved moved away from the same central point right there off east Africa. To me the split between Euro-Africa and the Americas could likely only have been a result of the main impact off east Africa, just as Fisher shows it. I think the Chixulub crater on the Yucatan could have helped open up the Gulf of Mexico after the main impact. Maybe something struck Iceland just before that to help split the western hemisphere from the eastern, although the split had to start at the southern end between Chile and South Africa, since the .
I don't see how the continents could have moved apart slowly, over a 5 month period or so. The Moho plasma layer would have allowed the continents to slide with almost no friction as soon as the split occurred from the impact. It's hard to see how asteroid or meteor impacts could last more than a day or so. How do you think they would have continued for months?
The idea that vulcanism occurred after the flood subsided, 5 months after the impact, is interesting. I suppose with all the heat built up from the continental sliding, vulcanism and mountain uplift and subsidence would have been natural. You may have noticed Gray's report about Tiahuanaco on the previous page. He said the city and Lake Titicaca and the surrounding land all rose up rapidly and the residents were all found buried in gullies nearby, apparently from the flood. Since the bodies didn't leave the area, it must have been water that didn't have a strong current, but it must have been a tsunami.
The 5 month period is still hard for me to accept though, for the most part. It seems that the raising and lowering of mountains should have lasted only a few weeks after the main impact. But I think most of your theory is correct.
Would you like to discuss the opening of the Gulf of Mexico more? I took a train ride from California to San Antonio, TX and from there north a couple weeks ago. I mostly noticed that mountain ranges were somewhat parallel to the Rio Grande at least from New Mexico through southern Texas.
moses
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
Guys, I would like to consider how the Andes and Rockies were formed. I think the evidence is pretty clear that they were formed rapidly. But how.
Well I think along the lines that if something grabbed hold of North and South America and stopped them moving, then the Pacific Ocean would crash into the Americas. Also the Atlantic would get stretched and what was land would sink into the sea. And I think that there is evidence for both the stretching and the sinking.
So what could grab hold of the Americas. A planet could do this through electrical interaction. Which leads to the idea that this planet came at Earth and electrically interacted with South America near the equator and then went above the Earth and so interacted with North America and then the Arctic. After that there are options, perhaps either an orbit around Earth or just pass more or less straight past. Perhaps the Himalayas were formed and some sinking of land in the Pacific.
Then we have to think that this could have occurred when the last of the big creatures were wiped out. So at some stage of the Younger Dryas.
Cheers, Mo
webolife
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
I visualize the Gulf of Mexico as an astrobleme, although it is not a requirement of my earth history. By relation the Chicxulub event must have happened subsequently, since it overlaps the rim of the Gulf "crater". Putting the continents back together as Pangea, the gulf area is near in the central rift area of the opening of the fountains of the deep. I've heard the sky as deep or ocean theme but disagree with it. The fact of the "matar" or meteors/asteroids/planetoids or whatever is that we find them [their astroblemes] associated with every major stratum, so it is natural to expect they occurred the whole time of the flooding depositional sequence [the drift episode], which I take to be 5 months based on the record. It is funny to hear you describe the 5 months as too slow!! And besides, the biblical record directly states that the period of the "matar" ended at the 150 day mark. I don't think you can be so confident about the lack of friction in the Moho, and sheer inertia considerations stretch the imagination to accept your speeds. The slowing of the drift toward the end, due to the friction that also produced the Andes and Rockies, etc. is consistent with the formation of the volcanic chains after the uplift. The hot spot under the Hawaiian chain is also consistent with the Pacific being squeezed from both sides during the drift event.
Lloyd
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
Mo said: ... something grabbed hold of North and South America .... the Atlantic would get stretched and what was land would sink into the sea. ... So what could grab hold of the Americas. A planet could do this through electrical interaction. ... [It] came at ... South America ... then ... interacted with North America and then the Arctic. After that ... perhaps ... the Himalayas were formed and some sinking of land in the Pacific. ... at some stage of the Younger Dryas.
That sounds similar to Donald Patten's theory, except that Patten attributed the pulling force on the mountain chains to gravity from a nearby planet, rather than to electrical interaction. This theory of electrical interaction wouldn't seem to explain how the coasts on opposite sides of the Atlantic would fit together, whereas Mike Fisher's impact theory at newgeology.us seems to explain almost all known features.
Webb said: I visualize the Gulf of Mexico as an astrobleme .... By relation the Chicxulub event must have happened subsequently, since it overlaps the rim of the Gulf "crater".
Do you know of any evidence of an astrobleme in the whole Gulf?
Putting the continents back together as Pangea, the gulf area is near in the central rift area of the opening of the fountains of the deep. I've heard the sky as deep or ocean theme but disagree with it.
I posted some years ago here http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=61233 a list of mythic associations from Barbara Walker's book, Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets. Here's one of the groups of associated symbols: CHAOS - godess' womb - twin creations - doomsday - Tiamat - wasteland - Nirvana - judgment day - godess mother - the deep - womb - darkness - great fish - churning - mother's abyss - ocean of blood - red sea - division = diameter = horizon of circle - **dragon - **spirit of God Note that the book considered "the deep" to be the "godess's womb", "ocean of blood", "godess mother" etc, which were seen in the sky, esp. as Venus etc.
... we find them [their astroblemes] associated with every major stratum,
Can you provide a reference? Sounds interesting & worth having a reference for.
so it is natural to expect they occurred the whole time of the flooding depositional sequence [the drift episode], which I take to be 5 months
Can you explain though how Earth could get hit by asteroids for 5 months? Did the Earth move through the asteroid belt?
I don't think you can be so confident about the lack of friction in the Moho,
and sheer inertia considerations stretch the imagination to accept your speeds.
Can you explain that in some detail? Mike Fisher did some math on the subject.
The slowing of the drift toward the end, due to the friction that also produced the Andes and Rockies, etc. is consistent with the formation of the volcanic chains after the uplift. The hot spot under the Hawaiian chain is also consistent with the Pacific being squeezed from both sides during the drift event.
Both of those statements are interesting. I don't think I heard Fisher say anything quite like that. Do you think squeezing seafloors would produce effects like the Hawaiian chain, while squeezing continents produces mountain chains?
webolife
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
Think about it: the oceanic crust is made of dense basalt lava, floating atop the Moho/upper mantle. A thicker less dense continental crust pushes against it from either side. But beneath those crustal plates is the plastic upper mantle storing up energy due to pressure of friction build up until it becomes molten and erupts... the middle of the oceanic crust is most susceptible to magma extrusion, while the leading edge of the continents is most susceptible. As to the astroblemes, a Wikipedia search for astrobleme or "impact structure" yields a list of many confirmed large astroblemes, which upon further research can be associated stratum by stratum with the [so-called] geologic column from the Cambrian forward. I know of no astroblemes existent [or remaining]in the Pre-Cambrian providing further evidence for the concurrence of "matar" activity with the 5 month flood event, given the aforementioned premise of the biblical record taken at face value. This is starkly contrasted with the standard model's "period of impact" of the primordial molten earth, but not necessarily in contradiction. Their is simply no biblical mention of this alleged earlier epoch. One enduring influence from my early-on readings of Velikovsky was the astronomical connection to world-wide catastrophes. I believe a large planetoid or comet came into tidal proximity to the earth causing widespread upheaval and accretion of mass to the earth in the form of the "matar" — the Chicxulub was just one of many... in my imagination, the body would have broken up and send bits tumbling to earth.
Lloyd
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
Asteroid Bombardment
Webb said: Astroblemes ... can be associated stratum by stratum with the geologic column from the Cambrian forward ... [but none] in the Pre-Cambrian
Chronology: Here's another version of an updated chronology that I posted on the Earth History thread. *(k means thousand years ago) 1. (...k) Solar System formation string from imploding nebular filament 2. (15k) Supercontinent formation from soft DiMoon collision 2a. Biosphere proliferation in ideal climate 2b. Advancement of Civilization 3. (12k) Saturn Flare from impact in Kuyper belt 4. (6k) Asteroid Belt formation from Aster collision 5. (5k) Saturn System encounter with Jupiter 5a. Saturn Subplanets dispersal 6. (4.4k) Asteroid Belt crossing (5 months) 6a. Asteroids bombardment of Earth, Moon & Mars 6b. Rapid Continental sliding 6c. Inner and outer Mountain Ranges formation 6d. Vulcanism in outer mountain ranges 6e. Flood Basalts in India, Siberia & Washington 6f. Great Flood tsunamis (5 months) 7. (4.4k) Ice Age (few hundred years) 8. (4.3k) Ancient Ice Age Map making 8a. Civilization rebuilding 9a. (4.2k) Scablands flooding 9b. Grand Canyon formation by lakes draining
Lloyd
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
Asteroid Bombardment Looks like this site may be the best list online of global astroblemes etc: http://www.wondermondo.com/Best/World/ListImpactCraters.htm. It shows Ages attributed to each crater, which I assume means what strata they are located in. I looked through the numbers a bit and they seem to cover a long period of Ages, which I think means most of the sedimentary strata on the continents, as Gordon said.
webolife
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
The French site you listed has some interesting discussion of the Mediterranean region near Gibraltar. They are of a similar mind to me regarding my consideration of the Gulf of Mexico. The Wondermondo site seems to have recopied the French site's table, but the discussion is not well thought out, imo. The list does include some Precambrian aged sites, which is convenient since in my scenario, the initial "matar" impacts would have been on the "Precambrian" pre-flood supercontinent. And to not muddle things up too much, I use words like Cambrian and Pre-Cambrian as primarily location words, not time words. A list such as these which includes standard geologic ages, needs to be taken in the same way as the Geologic Column, ie. built on the presumptions of superposition [disproven by Berhault] and gradualism [long epochs of gradual deposition, orogeny, and erosion]. As I mentioned in a previous post, these long epochs are the backbone of the standard model, yet virtually all the [non-existent] evidence for them lies in the hiatus between otherwise conformable strata! Take away the presumption of gradualism, and we are left with most of the world's surface covered by sedimentary remnants of the stages of a global cataclysm.
Lloyd
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
We're preparing to discuss Catastrophism live online at http://meetingwords.com/AO21VXSROJ one of these evenings. Anyone can post anything there in advance too. I may post some of the highlights from here to there soon.
Lloyd
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
We're going to have an online Etherpad discussion of Catastrophism Thur at 7 PM Pacific Time, 10 PM Eastern.
It works similar to Google Docs. It's for several people to write on the same document at the same time (for easier collaboration).
You can just read, if you don't want to participate. Or you can join in. Or you can post something in advance if you like, either questions or comments.
(We're trying to learn ways to improve scientific discussions and scientific method etc.)
Lloyd
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
Practice Conference
We're going to have an online Etherpad discussion of Catastrophism Thur at 7 PM Pacific Time, 10 PM Eastern.
It works similar to Google Docs. It's for several people to write on the same document at the same time (for easier collaboration).
You can just read, if you don't want to participate. Or you can join in. Or you can post something in advance if you like, either questions or comments.
(We're trying to learn ways to improve scientific discussions and scientific method etc.)
