Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: Reply with quote OP "lk"
TRANSMUTATION & DATING - Bdw, would you delete your duplicate post please? Not that I want to detract from your comments and question. - Dating the age of the universe isn't directly related to the topic of this thread, but I did already mention the reasons for thinking the Earth is only tens of thousands of years old.
- I also mentioned that Venus is conventionally considered to be 4.5 billion years old, like the Earth, but EU theorists think it formed within the past ten thousand years, as a body ejected from Saturn in view of ancient humans, which was recorded in myths. They also point out that Venus' heat is rapidly declining and that, at its current rate of heat loss, it will cool off to Earthlike temperatures in a few more thousand years. They also theorize that Saturn formed outside the solar system in a z-pinch. We may soon find out when that may have occurred. Upriver theorizes that the Vela pulsar may be the Sun's and or Saturn's origin. We may be able to calculate how long ago either of these bodies were at that location. - You neophytes have missed a lot of the original discussions that went on in Velikovsky circles. After Velikovsky's books in the 50s, there was first Dave Talbott's magazine, Pensee', in the early 70s, ten issues in all, of which I have all but #7 [which was about the 1974 AAAS symposium, a kangaroo court to condemn Velikovsky's heresy, with Sagan as the leading inquisitor - unfortunately I lent that issue to a friend]. At least 2 of those ten issues discussed flaws with conventional dating methods, including Carbon-14, Uranium-Lead, Rubidium-Strontium and probably others. Dave's brother, I think, then had a small newsletter, called Research Communications Network, in which I first heard about Robert Gentry's research on radio-halos in basement rock, which show it to have crystallized instantly. I don't remember if Kronos magazine had any articles about dating methods, but it carried on in place of Pensee' from 1975-85. I have them all, so I can look any time. Then came Aeon and Thoth, which latter is now at Kronia.com. SIS Review was around for quite a while, but I never saw it. - Dating methods are related to transmutation in that I think Velikovsky or Juergens theorized that the uranium found on the moon was transmuted in interplanetary lightning strikes.
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote OP "Rduke"
lk,
I understand why it is you said what you said in EU frame work.
However just because a fission/discharge event even can cause transmutations instantaneously, which I assume is a key point to you for suspecting the Earth so very young...verses the disk accretion crap which would take tremendous amounts of time. Does not imply that the earth is anywhere near young, even a few hundred million years is young to me but more plausible then anything under a million years... To our perception a million years is vast, but in the big picture it is a fraction of a blink of an eye.
Although it is a certainty that fissioning out a fresh new world as in the case of Venus (what a sight that must of been!) is faster and most certainly more conducive to allowing the stepping of life itself onto that world as the body will more then likely have a protective magnetic field and all the glorious elemental building blocks desired to bolster a fast progress of the process..
I do not suspect we will see life emerging from Venus in even a million years.
In the EU there is almost no way to ever know the age of something...even Venus.. As you could never know how old it was even if you were there to witness the birth of it... who knows how long it was in the womb?
Just to toss it out there... How do we know that the giant red spot in Jupiter is not a sign of pregnancy/recent birth?
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: Reply with quote OP "StefanR"
RDuke wrote: Does not imply that the earth is anywhere near young, even a few hundred million years is young to me but more plausible then anything under a million years... To our perception a million years is vast, but in the big picture it is a fraction of a blink of an eye.
I agree. I remember something about bathwater, babies and tossing.
RDuke wrote: How do we know that the giant red spot in Jupiter is not a sign of pregnancy/recent birth?
That was once in my mind too, and actually...it is still there. But the idea is nice _________________ "And surely struggle against him we must in every possible way who would annihilate knowledge and reason and mind, and yet ventures to speak confidently about anything." Plato, Phaedo
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote OP "lk"
DATING & KERVRAN'S BOOK - Hey, you guys, on dating, if you don't want to read or consider what I mentioned, then go start a different thread to discuss that topic of dating. - I just happened to find from one of our members that there is a site that has Kervran's book on transmutation online: http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Reply with quote OP "StefanR"
lk wrote: DATING & KERVRAN'S BOOK - Hey, you guys, on dating, if you don't want to read or consider what I mentioned, then go start a different thread to discuss that topic of dating. - I just happened to find from one of our members that there is a site that has Kervran's book on transmutation online: http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm
Apologies Ik, it was not so much dating but more a transgression of conception.
I checked out the link you gave, and although I will not rule out the possibillity of transmutation, the way this paper goes .....well Ik I hope I'm sufficiently clear if i state that I decline to be a Nereid here. I can pick it apart but this paper is a rehash of a old french hoax. _________________ "And surely struggle against him we must in every possible way who would annihilate knowledge and reason and mind, and yet ventures to speak confidently about anything." Plato, Phaedo
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: Reply with quote OP "arc-us"
StefanR wrote: Apologies lk, it was not so much dating but more a transgression of conception.
I checked out the link you gave, and although I will not rule out the possibillity of transmutation, the way this paper goes .....well lk I hope I'm sufficiently clear if i state that I decline to be a Nereid here. I can pick it apart but this paper is a rehash of a old french hoax.
Kervran's book was a fraud? Have a link or reference handy specifically addressing the hoax? Was it a bonafide, busted hoax or is it just controversial or denied? Hadn't heard of it being revealed as a hoax before.
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: Reply with quote OP "lk"
- I'm sure 95% or more of conventional chemists and physicists would say Kervran's book was a hoax, but they said the same about Velikovsky. I have Kervran's book and he cites all the scientific findings which strongly indicate that transmutation is the most logical explanation for numerous instances in conventional science literature. He was a scientist himself and he did the studies on welders et al to find that nitrogen gas in the air, N2, is the source of their carbon monoxide, CO, poisoning, after having painstakingly ruled out all other possibilities. I believe all the other studies were equally rigorous and his explanations of the findings were thorough. Many of the experiments would be easy to carry out. The easiest is probably the seed sprouting experiment. Get a particular variety of seeds and determine their average mineral composition and average range before sprouting and again after sprouting with pure distilled water in clean glass conatiners in a clean air environment. The results are that some of the mineral contents increase, while others decrease by the exact same amount. - It's pretty unlikely that you're going to persuade Wal Thornhill et al, our main experts, that Kervran's book is a hoax. Thornhill, and maybe Ralph Juergens before him, has been saying for at least ten years or more that electrical discharges transmute elements and that's how sulphur was formed on Io and Europa and elsewhere and how iron was formed as well. I think Velikovsky theorized too in the 70s that radioactive elements on the moon were transmuted in ancient times by electrical discharges, which caused the odd finding by NASA that some moon rocks dated to 20 billion years ago. Thornhill definitely supported Kervran's book in his Electric Universe CD. - So you need to get back to the drawing board, Stefan.
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: Reply with quote OP "arc-us"
I also read Kervran's book a few years ago and found it most "enlightening," though much of the chemistry/reactions went beyond my elementary understanding.
Anyway, whilst looking for actual evidence that his work was "debunked" (and finding nothing other than belief, fixed ideas, and opinion) I did run across these 2 links I thought were interesting:
Abstract. In 1959 C.L. Kervran shows experimental evidence of Low Energy Transmutations, but contemporary physicists refuse to believe in the experimental evidence in front of them because it would question the interests, widely well established, of High Energy Physics. In 1989 Fleishmann and Pons made another Low Energy Transmutation, erroneously called "Cold Fusion", which drew great attention. High Energy Physicists started a huge campaign to invalidate "Cold Fusion" in front of the public. In 1996 "The Developing Technology of Transmutations" becomes the fundamental issue of the Second Conference on Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (College Station, TX). In 1998, ICCF-7 (Vancouver) and in 2000, ICCF-8 (Lerici, Italy) show conclusive evidence of Low Energy Transmutation Phenomena. The Alchemic hints result to be always correct, proving that Alchemy is an experimental science. XXI century physics will be characterized by Low Energy Nuclear Reactions: The revival of Alchemy.
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Reply with quote OP "Krackonis"
junglelord wrote: I have to second that. The universe is quite possibly constant. The earth is at least 4 billion years old as far as I can see from science. The EU takes this dating process I believe. Correct me if I am wrong on the EU theory.
There is some debate on that. If you accept that radio-carbon tests are conclusive, then maybe, however, the problem is the nature of Electricity and Nuclei.
Radioactive atoms might not be radioactive at certain 'charge potentials' and certain times it will accelerate, and sometimes decelerate it's radioactivity.
So. How can we judge really?
Now, uniformtarianism is different that catasrophism, so this again changes the potential age.
I take the approach that the futhur back in time we estimate the most likely we are totally wrong. And of course, the dates could differ by location too...
I keep with Archaeological Dating back a hundred thousand years or so, Likely we are generally ok with most of that, but beyond we are entering int severe speculation.
A new dating method needs to be developed and a new reevaluation of the geological sciences need to be undertaken in light of the new EU theory. _________________ Neil Thompson
Krackonis
"We are the universe, trying to understand itself." - Delenn
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: Reply with quote OP "Krackonis"
lk wrote: - I'm sure 95% or more of conventional chemists and physicists would say Kervran's book was a hoax, but they said the same about Velikovsky. I have Kervran's book and he cites all the scientific findings which strongly indicate that transmutation is the most logical explanation for numerous instances in conventional science literature. He was a scientist himself and he did the studies on welders et al to find that nitrogen gas in the air, N2, is the source of their carbon monoxide, CO, poisoning, after having painstakingly ruled out all other possibilities. I believe all the other studies were equally rigorous and his explanations of the findings were thorough. Many of the experiments would be easy to carry out. The easiest is probably the seed sprouting experiment. Get a particular variety of seeds and determine their average mineral composition and average range before sprouting and again after sprouting with pure distilled water in clean glass conatiners in a clean air environment. The results are that some of the mineral contents increase, while others decrease by the exact same amount. - It's pretty unlikely that you're going to persuade Wal Thornhill et al, our main experts, that Kervran's book is a hoax. Thornhill, and maybe Ralph Juergens before him, has been saying for at least ten years or more that electrical discharges transmute elements and that's how sulphur was formed on Io and Europa and elsewhere and how iron was formed as well. I think Velikovsky theorized too in the 70s that radioactive elements on the moon were transmuted in ancient times by electrical discharges, which caused the odd finding by NASA that some moon rocks dated to 20 billion years ago. Thornhill definitely supported Kervran's book in his Electric Universe CD. - So you need to get back to the drawing board, Stefan.
Actually it makes perfect sense. My own chemistry experiements (and a quick review of the Movie, The Saint) tells me that Transmutation is indeed plausible at low temperatures. With Io being a pefect example of high energy transmutation (sulfur)
Plants and even human bodies must transmute elements to some degree. Sounds like someone who was ahead of their time, with or without the 'blessings' of Thornhill. _________________ Neil Thompson
Krackonis
"We are the universe, trying to understand itself." - Delenn
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote OP "lk"
SAMPLE EXPERIMENT from KERVRAN'S BOOK http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm#p1c3 from http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm Experimental Demonstrations of the Existence of the Phenomenon of Biological Transmutation (a) Research on Variations of Calcium and Potassium in Culture of Oats ~ (b) Research on K and Ca in Oats ~ (2) Simultaneous Investigation of Mg, K and Ca ~ (a) Experimental Protocol ~ __Oat seeds of the Flamingskrone variety (a blonde hybrid) with a 27.5 mg mean weight per seed were germinated in special vats covered with an indented plate with two seeds per indentation. The vats received double distilled water with a pH = 5.6. __A preliminary control was accomplished by destroying the water and material of a vat to accomplish spectrophotometry of atomic absorption to verify that there was no measurable amount of calcium therein. The culture was accomplished without added fertilization. __Germination took place in an enclosed space of about 70 x 40 x 30 cm of transparent plastic material out of contact with seeds and water. The enclosure was swept with air sent by an electric pump at a rate of about one liter/minute. This air passed through an air filter provided with one meter of hydrophilic cotton folded and compressed. Then it was muddled through four one-liter glass bottles, each filled with 750 ml of double distilled water, arranged in a series. The first was supplied with 30 ml of HCl to precipitate any trace of calcium dust which might have passed the filter. Then the air passed successively through two bottles with additives of NaHCO3 in order to neutralize any trace of acid drawn by the air from the preceding bottle. The fourth bottle contained only pure water. __Thus, neither by air, nor by water, nor by material in contact with the germinating seeds was there any possibility of an introduction of Ca into the enclosure where there was an overpressure of approximately 3 mm water which made it impossible for any entry of ambient air contaminated by Ca. __At the end of several weeks the plants developed from these seeds were gathered, dried, incinerated at 950 C, dissolved in hydrochloric acid and aliquot parts were analyzed by a number of methods in order to cross check results. __At the same time there were analyzed some control segments of non-germinated seeds as nearly identical as possible to those which were germinated. All seeds utilized were calibrated and came from selected seedings furnished by the INRA and their germination rate was better than 95%. Nevertheless, each seed was hand-picked, the same for the control segments as for those which were germinated, in order to eliminate any abnormality of dimension (either too large or too small) or presenting a visible defect of form or of color, to have experimental segments as homogenous and as similar as possible. __The essential purpose of the experiment, within the framework of verifying my studies, was to compare the quantity of Ca between seeds and plants in order to establish a balance sheet showing that germination of the oat --- a calcifugous plant --- in water with an acid pH will actually alter the quantity of Ca [after] a few weeks of growth in a calcium free environment. ... __Table 2 MEAN PER SEED - MEAN PER PLANT - DIFFERENCE - RANGE: SEED ---------- RANGE: PLANT K___0.113___________0.090_________-0.033_____+0.0072 to -0.0045_____+0.0119 to -0.0152 Ca__0.027___________0.059_________+0.032_____+0.0010 to -0.0015_____+0.0255 to -0.0128 Mg__0.031___________0.024_________-0.007_____+0.0059 to -0.0041_____+0.0053 to -0.0072
(d) Comparison of Variations in K and Ca ~ __In absolute value, K diminishes by 0.033 mg per unit while in absolute value, Ca increased by 0.032 mg per unit (between one seed and one plant derived from a similar seed). __Thus there is a definite convergence between these two values, which allows us to conclude that the augmentation of Ca comes from reduction in K, from which we have the following statement: __K 39/19 + H 1/1 >> Ca 40/20 + ~ 0.01 u.m.a. __In different experiments this compensatory augmentation of Ca and reduction of K during germination of oats in an acid culture has been observed to approximately ± 4%, reflecting inevitable differences due to slight biological variations and experimental errors. Again, we can present these values as follows: __in a seed: K + Ca = 0.140 mg __in a plant: K + Ca = 0.139 mg Indicating that the total amount of K + Ca does not change. or even: __in the seed: K/Ca = 0.113 / 0.027 = 4.2 approximately; __in the plant: K/Ca = 0.080 / 0.059 = 1.4 in excess, which again reflects the reduction of K with respect to Ca. As K + Ca does not change, the increase of Ca can have no other origin than the diminution of K, which makes it useless to look for some other origin of Ca. ... __The values of K and Ca, in both seeds and plants, as set forth above, are accepted without reservation because they confirm the mean measures supplied by other investigators using a variety of different analytic techniques. __It is noted that in this experiment the relative increase of Ca is greater than 118%. The graph in Figure 3 clearly shows the reciprocal variations of K and Ca. ...
Last edited by lk on Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: Reply with quote OP "lk"
NEUTRINOS INVOLVED IN BIOLOGICAL TRANSMUTATION How about these apples? This is more from the above experiments discussed at http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm#p1c3 from http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm Experimental Demonstrations of the Existence of the Phenomenon of Biological Transmutation (a) Research on Variations of Calcium and Potassium in Culture of Oats ~ (b) Research on K and Ca in Oats ~ (2) Simultaneous Investigation of Mg, K and Ca ~ __FIGURE 5 ~Formation of calcium from potassium by the combined action of an enzyme and a neutrino. The positive charges of the active site of the enzyme repel the H+ proton. The result of this electrostatic field is represented by H. ... __The enzyme would concentrate the neutrinos v, increasing the chances of impact with the material. __A neutrino v, adding its effect to the enzyme's positive charges, repels the H+ proton towards the K nucleus with sufficient energy for the proton to penetrate the K by the tunnel effect. The K atom recoils a little from the shock and becomes Ca (K19 + H1 >> Ca20). __The incident neutrino v, which has accompanied H, does not penetrate very far into K. It has given up some energy to H and is refracted in K, leaving with a different energy, v-prime not equal to v, by carrying off the excess energy resulting from the loss of mass between Ca and K + H. __This re-emitted neutrino v-prime will be lost in space without reacting with the material.
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote OP "lk"
CYCLOTRONS IN PLANTS — & ANIMALS TOO? A Cyclotron is a Particle Accelerator Here's some more interesting stuff from Kervran: http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm#p1c1 (1) Process Proposed by a US Army Scientific Department ~ ... __Classic physics shows that K + H >> Ca + 0.008 a.m.u. This means that in the reaction [v & v' are neutrinos of different energies] v + H + K >> Ca + v', the energy taken by the outgoing neutrino v' should be greater than the energy brought in by the incoming neutrino v. In other words, in biology the production of energy should not be limited to the sole exoenergetic chemical reactions. Exoenergetic reactions of physical [physics] origin should also be considered, although the energies involved are modest compared to the energy of fusion by the strong interaction. They are far from being negligible, as they result in a positive balance of approximately 40% for the cases studied. __We noted from de Beauregard: [p is proton] v + p >> v' + p' with v' =/ v (see the last chapter in our book of 1975). The US Army Scientific Services state: [~ means approximately =] v' >> v and v' ~ v + 40%. Could this be attributed to a fusion process produced following a process other than the strong interaction process? __The report describes an example based on the oxidative phosphorylation process in mitochondria. Some animal cells include up to 7,000 mitochondria. From the energetic point of view, the active molecule is ATP after chelation of one Mg atom (Mg-ATP) under the action of an enzyme, Mg-ATPase. I discussed this process in more details in my book of 1975, in particular on page 85. I first presented the beginning of its study in my book of 1968, now out of print. __The US Army study shows also an action by D-ribose molecules interacting with the Mg-ATP to produce a rotation of the acyl-oxygen dipoles linked to P atoms. Schematic representations and computations lead to a helix with H+ ions in an unsaturated ionic structure. A link is established between the D-ribose and [or in?] the form gamma oxygen. The Mg++ chain electrons (axial chain of 10 Mg++ in the study) produce an oscillating electric field leading to a resonance. An H+ ion, introduced between the components of an OH and gamma-O pair, ends up on a circular helix trajectory of approximately 30 Angstroms diameter under the dipole's impulsion. Following this hypothesis, the hydrogen H+ positive ions would finally acquire a very high rotational velocity. This would be a relativistic velocity, so to speak, due [to] a cyclotron effect, such that H+ would cross the potential barrier of an atomic nucleus and penetrate into it. If the proton receiver is an atom of K the reaction would be: K19+ + H1 >> Ca20. - Get that, folks? Plants have tiny cyclotrons that accelerate protons to relativistic speeds so they can penetrate atoms and transmute them into different atoms. In this case potassium is transmuted into calcium. I found that D-ribose is a pentose closely structurally related to deoxyribose, the sugar of DNA. Ribose seems to be good at forming helixes [helices]. This helix acts as a cyclotron. [I wonder if the DNA helix can do that too?] I wonder if animals have similar cyclotrons. Apparently they do, since they and we seem to accomplish numerous transmutations, just as plants do. [I think the dipole mentioned above, that I underlined, refers to the OH and O ions on the ribose. Does anyone have a better idea?] - So how's this for an explanation of low-energy transmutation?
Last edited by lk on Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:13 am; edited 1 time in total
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:11 am Post subject: Reply with quote OP "StefanR"
Well hoax maybe strongly stated, but has anybody taken the time to read the whole of it? Now I do like the ideas of the neutrinos and I could give a like example later, but I have a little background in biology and all the fuss about vague methodology made me a little doubtful about it. Also a lot off qouted sources in the text go to old french research and keeping the state of science in that time, that added more doubt. I know it might sound like 'mainstream-denial', but let everybody judge for himself. _________________ "And surely struggle against him we must in every possible way who would annihilate knowledge and reason and mind, and yet ventures to speak confidently about anything." Plato, Phaedo
bboyer
Re: Recovered: Transmutation on Stars, Planets etc
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: Reply with quote OP "lk"
- I have a biology background too [nutrition]. The studies cited are from all over the world. They're mostly from the 70s because the book was written in the early 80s. And what's wrong with the detailed picture I just quoted that explains how low-energy transmutation seems to occur?
