Here is one of the two images i think begin to reveal the possibilities. Make note of the proportionality of secondary craters compared to the primary. d...z
When you read this thread keep in mind that the objective is to evaluate the potential of water as a method to simulate much more intense conditions that might be released as the forces upon a solid object turns it to a thermalized jell, if i can call it that,, "it" being a plasmoid, if that be the right name for what i'm thinking about. Additionally, this evaluation will compare the results against what we see at meteor crater where the last body of water there has been named Hopi Lake. Now i must first address the skeptics that doubt the presence of this and other bodies of water which preceded hopi lake and how the involvement of water cannot be entirely dismissed in what happened to form the Grand Canyon and its tributaries. Without starting at a phase when the land, which is now the Colorado plateau, was liquified and settling/sorting itself into the layered structure we see now, a person might overlook some important details. I think we can all agree that the stratification we see now was the result of a luqified mass of material emerging out of solution. What might be a point of disagreement is how quickly. The absence of large or should i say thick biological boarders between layers may resolve that detail. But lets move on and settle that latter. Time is not as important as are the details, and should never become a vale to block focus on details. If we can agree on the detail of material in solution then we must address the processes that occurs next, dehydration. Unless that material remains saturated it must become bone dry, and this can occur rapidly, but the most important aspect of the drying process to be focused on here is the formation of cracks and the warping of material that has become dry as a bone. Has anyone ever considered that the first cause for the formation of a drainage path could have been the cracking of the dried out land, and we must not forget the uplifting forces as the weight of that moistened material is reduced dramatically by drying out thoroughly. We must also consider subterranean pathways that that never gave way totally to the drying process. And, of course,there was certainly so much more going on in the region that could account for stresses, deep upon the mantel, that had influence at the surface.
But lets return for a moment back to the presence of water and the experiment for simulating crater formation. To answer the water issue consider the limestone, the Great Denudation, the layering and the picture below from Walter Browns Book, figure 107. Unusual Erosion.
This image shows the point where the Little Colorado flows into the Colorado River just south of Marble canyon. The captions points out the smooth land to the east which is 2000ft below the Kaibab Plateau. If you look closely you might see two separate events. One of them put mud and on top of Nankoweap Mesa and one carved Nankoweap Canyon far below the root of the Mesa and at right angle to it.
Close examination of this photo should reveal the sequence. Lloyd has mentioned one version from the source of this image. From looking at this image, what do you think? I will offer some observation for consideration. d...z
I am certain much of this has been covered else where here so please help put those pieces together as links and clips here.
dahlenaz
Re: Hopi Lake's Meteor Crater Event, (proposal)
Here are a couple more images of Hydraulic formed craters in deeper slightly saturated material.
The directory for these images is an open one so just shorten the address to see the rest of whats been uploaded so far. d...z
Shelgeyr
Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!
I ran across a "new" crater-looking structure in Egypt today, and I don't see it listed in the "impact database", so I thought I should probably mention it here.
It is pretty small, and located at 24.762215°, 29.835397°
Yes, Every time i setup the low power experiments and dust covered surfaces, either the CRT's of the ionizer- powered or now the low power flyback. There's more than one way to get the job done without getting into the high risk setups. I've recently explored the flyback experiments and am more convinced than ever that the most important thing we can do is show the process at lowered power levels with slightly imobile material (electically speaking), nothing is gained by limiting people's ability to see the simplicity of the process.. When people look at their worn door knobs they should think EDM,, when they clean their ionizers they should be looking for the amazing features made by arc in dust. We will have failed as presenters if our audience becomes dependent on our elaborate setup to understand the process we propose for planetary features. d...z
Knowing that plasma is totally scalable, this simple little experiment can be expanded to interplanetary scale and should still work. More complex shapes need more filamentary arcs.
dahlenaz
Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!
cigarshaped wrote: Knowing that plasma is totally scalable, this simple little experiment can be expanded to interplanetary scale and should still work. More complex shapes need more filamentary arcs. ;)
There is an abundence of filamentary characteristics associated with arcs in the form of corona but that does not always need a visible arc to manifest and have and effect on material.
By complex shapes,, what are you refereing to? d...z
Charles Chandler Explains Crater Formation - See: http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1~. - He said regarding the Mars video that he found "the instances of scalloping, and the crater chains, to be intriguing" evidence for EDM. He thinks craters can also form by bolide impacts that produce thermonuclear explosions, because both of the requirements for such explosions seem to be present, namely large momentum to smash atoms apart and high pressure to confine them and allow fusion. And he thinks bolides can also explode in the air as airbursts, due to the ionosphere stripping off electrons, which form the shockwaves in front of meteors. No, wait, it's positive ions that form the shockwaves, not electrons, I think. As the electrons are pulled out of the meteor, the bolide becomes positively charged and the molecules increasingly repel each other, which will cause an explosion in air, if the bolide is small enough.
I had asked him: If bolides produce impacts, how can central peaks contain strata like the surrounding bedrock? He said in reply: This is a well-known fluid dynamic phenomenon, which would be an expected property of the ejecta from a thermonuclear explosion. When a high-velocity jet hits a perpendicular surface, it accomplishes little erosion where the jet is actually perpendicular. This is because there is nowhere for the fluid (i.e., nuclear ejecta) to go, so there is no excavation. Away from the normal point, the fluid can gouge out material and carry it off. So at the center of the crater, the only material that was removed was by simple vaporization. Away from the center, it's vaporization plus entrainment into the high velocity flow, which is more efficient at removing material.
dahlenaz
Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!
I would agree with his thoughts about the forces at the center of the bolide being somewhat neutralized or limited due to the surrounding forces... The sharply cut angular appearance of some central peaks, such as those used in the recent news item from t-bolts on planetary scarring. I can imagine the downward forces cutting away vertically and then moving radially. I've seen a hint of this in the splash-crater experiments and i wonder if he has considered a scenario in between air explosion and atomic vaporization,, something along the line of being in a semi-plastic state. You can look through my pictures at http://para-az.com/hydraulic-craters to see if i put up any with centrally located remnant material, remember noting that outcome on occasion... d...z
I have seen other similiar videos a few days ago but can't find them anymore. One of those was particular interesting in that the exact same spot on the moon flashed several times in succession (a second or two between flashes), I immediately thought of how lightning has a tendency to follow the same path as the "leader bolt" (excuse my non-scientific terminology).
I did not see any meteor or flying object, although I assume they were too small to see, and that there are confirmed to exist by the super-duper telescopes used by the governments.
The craters left behind and the way the flashing occurs doesn't look like a collision (to my untrained eye).
I find it suprising that with all the craters and meteors flying around our solar system, footage of these events is so hard to find on the net.
dahlenaz
Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!
That is really great video and from it we should be able to determine numerous aspects of the event.
We should probably keep in mind factors related to camera exposure and recovery time and lens considerations before drawing conclusions about multiple flashes,, even though we see them they might not be real to the event. Camera film speed is probably high so a reflected flash off interior lenses might be captured and look like multiple flashes,, just thinking out loud here,, never seen or heard of it,, but i'd expect it.
We should be able to tell how high the flash was from the ground by looking for changes in surrounding shadows from objects blocking sunlight. If we can ever get a hold of the origninal and play it back on suitable equipment, we'd know for certain.
Since this is a video with movement side to side, the images can be used for side-by-side 3D viewing which may reveal details to your left eye which your right eye might miss,,, and also give a 3D view. Stereophoto Maker is good sofware for this.
Notice in the images that the dust displacement pattern is offset to one side,,, I've seen effects of non-right angle discharges in experiments so offset displacement may not offer anything supportive of a specific cause.
On Earth, meteorites burning up in the atmosphere can produce similar flashes, but the Moon has no atmosphere for anything to burn up in, so what could be causing them? As it turns out, according to a new study, the answer is still meteorites, but for a slightly different reason.
The lights don't result from burning up as on Earth, but rather are hot blobs of material produced by the impact itself. The impacts were calculated to be powerful enough to melt the meteorites, producing super hot liquid droplets, called melt droplets, that produced light as they formed and then began to cool afterwards. The meteorites themselves can be tiny, but still cause an impact that could be seen from Earth.
Lloyd
Re: Help Us Explain Crater Formation!
JC, I posted a link to your earlier post about the new Moon crater on this thread: http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&am~. And I asked Charles there to compare that with the flashes seen during the Deep Impact event on Comet Tempel 1, which video I provided a link to there also. And I asked if he can account for all of the flashes there, including some seen hours later away from the Deep Impact crater. That may be interesting to follow for a spell.
